Development Updates

[depdawg]

I'm glad to hear that the Arcade Sim will continue.

I know this is a difficult subject for a lot of you. I am a new member and don't have the same history so I'll offer my views if that is ok? Hopefully the questions I raise are OK within this thread.

I think it does make sense to ultimately move to a unifying open source tech such as MAME, but until that is there and at least as good as MFME the best interim solution would be to have MFME as an optional bolt on. As Reg suggested if MFME is detected then the Arcade Sim could add the supported MFME machines for selection during the arcade creation?

I guess the downside of not having MFME bundled would be that online arcades that have MFME machines in it wouldn't be accessible to the users that don't have MFME installed, but I'm sure the Sim could easily recognise what arcades or machines are valid for the user. 

In the long term it doesn't make sense to develop something that uses a closed, unsupported platform, even though MFME is great. Who knows what will break when Windows 2030 comes around! Yes we will have virtual machines capable of running W7 and W10 but that doesn't continue development. 

I totally respect the wishes of Wizard and respect everybody that is doing the right thing by him. But I can't believe he would want everything just to stop. 

MFME is the platform this community is built on, but it is nothing without the effort so many others put into this scene. All the roms, layouts, flyers etc. The question the community might need to consider at some point is how do all the assets you have given us continue to be appreciated for the years to come.

I can see how rejuvenated the community got with the new releases of MFME. I think without new development the danger is the scene stagnates. So I'm glad we can see a way forward.

As a community we will continue to appreciate MFME, for a standalone experience you don't need anything else. We also need to consider how the assets you create get used as the scene develops. Or perhaps the answer is it doesn't and it ends with MFME 20.1. 

I really appreciate the work you all do. I enjoy looking back at the past, but we should also look to the future. 

 

[Zippy]

1 hour ago, depdawg said:

I'm glad to hear that the Arcade Sim will continue.

I know this is a difficult subject for a lot of you. I am a new member and don't have the same history so I'll offer my views if that is ok? Hopefully the questions I raise are OK within this thread.

I think it does make sense to ultimately move to a unifying open source tech such as MAME, but until that is there and at least as good as MFME the best interim solution would be to have MFME as an optional bolt on. As Reg suggested if MFME is detected then the Arcade Sim could add the supported MFME machines for selection during the arcade creation?

I guess the downside of not having MFME bundled would be that online arcades that have MFME machines in it wouldn't be accessible to the users that don't have MFME installed, but I'm sure the Sim could easily recognise what arcades or machines are valid for the user. 

In the long term it doesn't make sense to develop something that uses a closed, unsupported platform, even though MFME is great. Who knows what will break when Windows 2030 comes around! Yes we will have virtual machines capable of running W7 and W10 but that doesn't continue development. 

I totally respect the wishes of Wizard and respect everybody that is doing the right thing by him. But I can't believe he would want everything just to stop. 

MFME is the platform this community is built on, but it is nothing without the effort so many others put into this scene. All the roms, layouts, flyers etc. The question the community might need to consider at some point is how do all the assets you have given us continue to be appreciated for the years to come.

I can see how rejuvenated the community got with the new releases of MFME. I think without new development the danger is the scene stagnates. So I'm glad we can see a way forward.

As a community we will continue to appreciate MFME, for a standalone experience you don't need anything else. We also need to consider how the assets you create get used as the scene develops. Or perhaps the answer is it doesn't and it ends with MFME 20.1. 

I really appreciate the work you all do. I enjoy looking back at the past, but we should also look to the future. 

 

My thoughts exactly, well said

[Mavroz]

The issue of keeping Mfme up and running especially with further Windows updates is the most concerning thing to me regarding the future of our hobby.

[johnparker007]

That's a great summary @depdawg and that's pretty much where I am   
 

37 minutes ago, Mavroz said:

The issue of keeping Mfme up and running especially with further Windows updates is the most concerning thing to me regarding the future of our hobby.

@Mavroz I think that side will be ok, it was discussed recently on here, already Virtual Machines are really good (i.e. performant, whilst they are on the same architecture).  Also, with what Apple are doing with x86 -> arm emulation, I think while it may be slightly more fiddly, it will be possible to run MFME 20.1 in the far future, probably indefinitely.  

After the strong reactions after my recent post about dropping MFME as the core FME engine ...I will be keeping MFME support and my thoughts around this were pretty much what you've written; 

I think it does make sense to ultimately move to a unifying open source tech such as MAME, but until that is there and at least as good as MFME the best interim solution would be to have MFME as an optional bolt on. As Reg suggested if MFME is detected then the Arcade Sim could add the supported MFME machines for selection during the arcade creation?

I guess the downside of not having MFME bundled would be that online arcades that have MFME machines in it wouldn't be accessible to the users that don't have MFME installed, but I'm sure the Sim could easily recognise what arcades or machines are valid for the user.

So some kind of autodetecting system, but new users would not see any of the MFME-requiring machines until MAME is at that level (or they install MFME).  It could even be on a machine by machine basis, so the Arcade Sim can download fresh binaries of MAME as they are released to its internal directory along with the updated compatibility list from the Arcade Sim server, then slowly enable currently MFME machines to the user, as they become emulated at a good enough level in MAME for use in the simulator.

Edited March 26, 2021 by johnparker007

[davep180]

MAME is far more reaching, but in terms of fruit machine emulation, has a fair way to go. Most of the first users of Arcade Sim would be MFME related users I would have thought. It is an exciting thought that one day Mame will emulate fruities as well as MFME does, and I am glad you are looking at ways to implement MFME within the rules set out by the late, great Wizard. I've been following your thread on this, and have enjoyed it immensely, it's looking really good / promising, and wish you all the best with it.

[Mavroz]

@johnparker007 , thank you for the reply and explanation, much appreciated.

I certainly hope that you reach your goal and can implement MFME as a bolt on withinn your project as at this stage it looks very impressive.

 

 

[johnparker007]

Meant to be doing real life stuff today, but managed to squeeze in some initial work on MAME lamp scraping/data layouts  
 

Some tech info:   MAME ultimately won't need data layouts as I have the source, so can expose the raw data (which will reduce 1-2 frames of input lag which is great)... but since MFME works on data layouts, I've decided to do this as an interim approach, in order to get things moving  

Also I'm playing this via a few keys directly into MAME itself, there's a whole thing to figure out for getting hopefully some automated remapping, so then the keys/clickable buttons will work the same as the MFME ones.

DIP switches/jackpot keys/percentage etc are on MAME defaults for now, again this all needs sussing out.

[johnparker007]

In the spirit of avoiding repairing the dishwasher and doing other real life responsibilities, I have the first reels working (24 symbol reels)  

Really should fix the dishwasher now, though I feel the segment alpha display calling me as the last main visual thing...  

Edited March 27, 2021 by johnparker007

[Zippy]

Awesome JP, loving that reel bounce although your gambling skills are crap

[johnparker007]

Getting there with the alpha segment display; split out characters/brightness on the MAME data layout, correctly working brightness.  Next need to write stuff to decode this to my alpha display 'font' (which should descrambled the characters rendered in arcade sim)...  

 

[johnparker007]

Some progress on the new MAME segment display scraper - it's now scraping some (about half) the characters correctly... hopefully be able to iron out the remaining characters and other issues over the coming week  
 

 

[depdawg]

I have just discovered the wonders of Visual Pinball. It's absolutely fantastic. It has taken me most of the weekend to get the VR working but I think I've got there with a vr-launcher. 

So I can now play Mame arcade machines, MFME Fruit machines and VPX pinball. Which is amazing.

@johnparker007 would the integration of the pinball machines using VPinMame be something you would try and have in your arcade sim at some point in the future? 

[johnparker007]

1 hour ago, depdawg said:

I have just discovered the wonders of Visual Pinball. It's absolutely fantastic. It has taken me most of the weekend to get the VR working but I think I've got there with a vr-launcher. 

So I can now play Mame arcade machines, MFME Fruit machines and VPX pinball. Which is amazing.

@johnparker007 would the integration of the pinball machines using VPinMame be something you would try and have in your arcade sim at some point in the future? 

There's stuff happening in the VP community around VPE (I think as a spin off from the earlier proof of concept Unit3d).  Once that's got to some level of maturity, I'd planned to experiment with it to see how I might integrate it wrt. texture/model streaming etc.  Probably a long way off though, but that'll a way to achieve it (as both projects are using Unity game engine already)  

[johnparker007]

MAME segment alpha display now scraping correctly, including decimal points  

Next I'll look at both passing keyboard input direct to process (so it can be hidden behind the fullscreen arcade), and then the remapping (I'm playing this in MAME with a really weird set of keys; Ctrl, Alt, Space, Shift, C, 5, 1 etc). 

I remember having a go at MFME -> MAME automated key remapping before, but I think there was some problem - though I honestly can't remember what it was, it was like 5 years ago at least!  Maybe I'll suss it out this time...  
 

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by johnparker007

[johnparker007]

A little tech update; on looking at the best way to get input into MAME whilst it's hidden in the background, with Arcade Sim fullscreen in the foreground (the same as how it works with MFME now).

Here I'm experimenting with Lua scripting (the other usual techniques for input faking to an unfocussed window don't work well/at all for various reasons).  So this quick vid shows me sending pause, then resume commands,  while MAME is 'in the background', and the arcade sim has the foreground focus.

My hope is that I can expand on this, to set the input switch matrix states as buttons from the arcade sim side are pressed/released  

 

[johnparker007]

Another quick tech update vid: I've expanding the Lua scripting... and success   So when I press/release Space Bar in arcade sim, it is changing the state of the start button on/off in the MAME instance in the background.

All manually hacked together for now, but seems to be working as good as the MFME keypress sending system as a proof-of-concept   I believe this should support multiple keys (holding down cancel to slow down skill stops then hitting etc)
 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by johnparker007

[bullionbars2011]

Looking good mate going to be great when this is fully completed. Will this support multiplayer machines like partytime arena bullion bars 3 player ect....

[johnparker007]

27 minutes ago, bullionbars2011 said:

Looking good mate going to be great when this is fully completed. Will this support multiplayer machines like partytime arena bullion bars 3 player ect....

Thanks bud   The multiplayer machines will be supported, but only as MFME machines, as MAME cannot do them yet (see next post for more info).

Edited April 2, 2021 by johnparker007

[johnparker007]

As an aside on the MFME/MAME situation:

The plan is to have this all seamless, so if someone has MFME installed (as I'd imagine everyone on here has), arcade sim will find it, and the MFME machines will be visible in the library, also arcades including MFME machines that have been shared will be visible.

For users who do not have MFME installed, the MFME machines/arcades will be hidden (as they will not work correctly without MFME).  I hope this is a good balance for the FME community.

I am also thinking about auto-added wall-hung picture 'props', and for standard (non-MFME) arcades that have a few fruit machines; they would contain images directing people to Desert Island Fruits to learn more about FME/get more fruities, perhaps even launch a browser with the URL when selected.  I'm looking to strike a balance between 'working perfectly out of the box' for new users, and signposting new fruit machine enthusiasts to this wonderful FME scene.

I feel the project had a wobble recently with the MFME/MAME situation, and I hope this clears us a healthy path forward that everyone is happy with... I welcome any further suggestions on this stuff

Edited April 2, 2021 by johnparker007

[jabbathehut]

Makes sense but what sort of access would the program need to my system to determine whether I have mfme .

[johnparker007]

(Sorry, correction in next post)

Edited April 2, 2021 by johnparker007

[johnparker007]

15 minutes ago, jabbathehut said:

Makes sense but what sort of access would the program need to my system to determine whether I have mfme .

I haven't tested this yet, but as @Reg mentioned earlier in the thread, I can scan for MFME's entries in the Windows registry - so ideally the arcade sim program won't need to run as Administrator, I think I can get those at normal privileges. 

For MFME, the 'turbo start' feature will require a permission I believe - but it will work without that permission (without turbo-starting) if a user chooses to deny permission to the add-on .exe  that makes all that work.  Not due to the nature of the code, but Windows now requires .exe's to be 'signed'... so if it proves popular, donations could be used to pay for a signing certificate to remove that issue.  While we're solidly in pre-alpha territory, I'm  looking to keep costs low, so that popup will be an annoyance on the first run of arcade sim running MFME machines.

On an alternative strategy to 'unthrottling' for fast startup; For MPU4 under MAME I've had success using 'save states'.  If they don't work correctly for other techs (haven't tried) I may be able to fix them up in the MAME source.  These mean that even newer techs, that are slow to start up, could be up and running in less than a second  All stuff for further down the line...

[Zippy]

Just knew that you would stay on target even with a bit of a bump as someone with your skills are not going to give up without a fight, sounds like another great man we knew Think we will both look forward to when this is done

Thanks for your continued energy and informative posts to keep us up to speed, generally speaking I bet many can't wait for the JP to drop (double meaning) if you know what i mean.

Fucking awesome stuff

[slasher]

Is A:E not coming back then?

[Zippy]

19 minutes ago, slasher said:

Is A:E not coming back then?

I'm sure he will