Development Updates

[Altharic]

I am wondering if there is more than one version of that software link below mentions "( the pink phanter,Tico Tico, the Marseillaise,the Cucaracha) non of those tracks are in the list of the doorbell?

 

http://www.facele.eu/museum/calculators/games-chips

[johnparker007]

6 hours ago, Altharic said:

I am wondering if there is more than one version of that software link below mentions "( the pink phanter,Tico Tico, the Marseillaise,the Cucaracha) non of those tracks are in the list of the doorbell?

 

http://www.facele.eu/museum/calculators/games-chips

"The particular chip used here has the MP0027A program on it, there was a MP0027 as well which I'd imagine is compatible but not 100% sure."

Note the A suffix, perhaps they used the standard MP0027 for test dev of the fruit machine, then once the knew they could make it work/speed it up for their electronic sound effects/music system, they got in touch with TI to request a custom variant, with their own note data.

[johnparker007]

Haha in theory the notes could be 'dumped' and a simulation (not true emulation) made of the sound, even for the fast effects  

There's two videos on youtube by Steve's Fruities of this machine, both have reasonably good sound quality.  I've picked perhaps the hardest which is the credit sound, as you do also have the mechanical sound of the coin travelling though the mech.

I've downtempo'd it a bunch of times, retaining pitch.  We know the TI part generates square waves (it was in the .pdf posted earlier).  We can assume it's a monophonic square wave generator, and presumably hitting standard notes frequencies (c, d#, d... a#, b...) since it can be programmed with standard songs for doorbells etc.  So the data can be retrieved from a simple sound recording 

So it's just a case of reproducing that very slow sequence in a sequencer/tracker using a square wave, speed it back up by the same amount I down tempod it (I think I halved it like 4-5 times in this rough demo), and you will have the precise notes and intervals of the original hardware.

I guess I could probably sort this out in an afternoon to recreate all the 'songs' for the different sounds of the fruit machine (I've done plenty of sequencing/music over the years, so this is super basic)... though I'm not sure if MAME team would want a simulation vs a chip dump.  I guess if a TMS1000 MP0027 program from a doorbell could be dumped (destructively by decapping), then it could be emulated, then the songs changed to be the correct note/interval data as derived from the sound recording.  Which would in theory give a very similar/same 'dump' as if the chip were decapped from an actual Oranges and Lemons (without ever needing to have a chip from an Oranges & Lemons).

It's a lot of work for one machine though  

Edited September 13, 2022 by johnparker007

[SomeRandomGuy]

9 hours ago, Altharic said:

I am wondering if there is more than one version of that software link below mentions "( the pink phanter,Tico Tico, the Marseillaise,the Cucaracha) non of those tracks are in the list of the doorbell?

2 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

Note the A suffix, perhaps they used the standard MP0027 for test dev of the fruit machine, then once the knew they could make it work/speed it up for their electronic sound effects/music system, they got in touch with TI to request a custom variant, with their own note data.

Thinking about it now it's likely IMO, a new revision wouldn't make much sense if you're not changing anything, and there isn't much to change there other than the song data. The magazine articles about this thing say that MP0027 was the original program made by the Chroma Chime designers, I'd imagine the same for the A revision. I doubt that Bellfruit had a one-off chip made for probably a single game, makes more sense to buy an existing part instead. Either way, we'll only know for sure once someone gets one of the chips to play all it's music or dumps one someday

1 hour ago, johnparker007 said:

Haha in theory the notes could be 'dumped' and a simulation (not true emulation) made of the sound, even for the fast effects 

Well, that kind of approach is doable . I even very briefly thought about it, but these kinds of hacks don't really fly in MAME nowadays, I very highly doubt that Vas would have it merged. I guess if someone really happens to have an itch for Oranges And Lemons, then there's custom builds, but I've got loads of fruities to emulate already, not that interested in making music hacks for one. Sampling all the tunes and playing them according to commands sent to the chip would be a quick and dirty way to do it

1 hour ago, johnparker007 said:

It's a lot of work for one machine though  

Definitely agreed

[Altharic]

I bet one of these kits is lurking in a charity shop somewhere for 50p just a case of finding it

[johnparker007]

A little more progress update, still legacy section work, I now have ~3,000 'records' at folder level, generally one per game, that shows general folder info, plus the layout it's chosen as best candidate for providing layout and config data for MAME, as well as it will be used for direct AS DX creation.

Here's scanning through some games:

Next jobs are jobs that definitely benefit Arcade Sim directly, as well as MAME; it is fixing various issues with my (flakey) layout extractor... for example, I currently have manual additional steps to do when a layout is not so wide, and the menu bar wraps onto a second row:

So that needs to be automated.  Then there are various components that I'm not scraping yet, such as Band Reels, Disk Reels, Prism Lamps, lamps greater than 1-4 in a single lamp component, 7 Segment blocks, the list goes on...

But before that, I'm looking to help fill more info on the Fruit Machine Database (link in my sig) - @spa has been doing incredible work, getting all the flyers linked in from his drive(s), and also filling in lots of cabinets, this will all be great for AS when I'm back to making new machines for that - so you can hover and see flyers in this database, that is still in development - quick demo vid of the database WIP here: 

I've realised I can tie in some of the legacy section work I've been doing, to fill in more gaps in the Club/AWP - Platform - Manufacturer columns, as it's data I have now by game (where there is an MFME layout), highlighted here:

So much to do   But it's nice how some MAME work also feeds into the Fruity DB, some MAME stuff feeds into AS etc... fruity DB will feed into AS, this current work feeds into all three... it feels like it's all very slowly coming together... just a few more years haha  

Edited September 14, 2022 by johnparker007

[serene02]

Astounding work as usual mate

J

[woodsy]

Truly remarkable patience and determination you must have! Good on you, and the others that are also working to assist, create, complete projects together or alone in the efforts to secure the internet will always have something other than cats and porn

[johnparker007]

5 hours ago, woodsy said:

Truly remarkable patience and determination you must have! Good on you, and the others that are also working to assist, create, complete projects together or alone in the efforts to secure the internet will always have something other than cats and porn

There's always going to be cats and porn lol   Loads of people working away on FME stuff at the mo; people doing MAME work, layouts of course, this forum, the fruit machine DB, other stuff... a lot riding on the back of MFME of course, so thanks to Chris as always RIP.

[Altharic]

4 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

There's always going to be cats and porn lol   Loads of people working away on FME stuff at the mo; people doing MAME work, layouts of course, this forum, the fruit machine DB, other stuff... a lot riding on the back of MFME of course, so thanks to Chris as always RIP.

I am keeping an eye out for that doorbell

[andrew96]

OMG are you kidding me!!!!!!

I actually bought one of those chips back in the day and made a doorbell

Luckily I still know where it is!

 

It indeed has the MP0027A chip I bought still in it

 

I can confirm though the 'A' version has NO special different code inside it to non A version, it still plays the same tunes, typed on paper as it was before computers and ANY word processing! I typed it!! lol

 

[johnparker007]

37 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

OMG are you kidding me!!!!!!

I actually bought one of those chips back in the day and made a doorbell

Luckily I still know where it is!

 

It indeed has the MP0027A chip I bought still in it

 

I can confirm though the 'A' version has NO special different code inside it to non A version, it still plays the same tunes, typed on paper as it was before computers and ANY word processing! I typed it!! lol

 

OMG that is insane Andrew!  @SomeRandomGuy I cannot believe this lol!

Wow - well that's why it's good to hoard stuff - I suddenly don't feel so bad about my many plastic tubs of old electronic bits 'n' bobs... you just never know  

Absolutely fantastic hoarding Andrew  

Holy shit - it gets crazier, check out the name of this song from Andrew's original typed 'track list':

"Oranges And Lemons" - the exact same name as the fruit machine it was used in!!! This is all just bonkers lol  

And the feature music on the machine is the Oranges & Lemons song, so it must be the same chip!  

Edited September 15, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

back in the day when electronic magazines were the only information you could get! and postal orders ruled!!

[johnparker007]

6 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

back in the day when electronic magazines were the only information you could get! and postal orders ruled!!

I remember buying a couple of ZX Spectrum games out of a magazine ad via mail order, think a cheque was involved   
So here's a snippet of the real fruit machine playing that Oranges And Lemons song - so it really is that actual chip that was used then!

...and they probably based that fruit machine theme/name around the MP0027A, when they realised they could get a cheap chip that would play a non-copyrighted fruit themed song.  Cool  

Edited September 15, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

1 minute ago, johnparker007 said:

I remember buying a couple of ZX Spectrum games out of a magazine ad via mail order, think a cheque was involved   
So here's a snippet of the real fruit machine playing that Oranges And Lemons song - so it really is that actual chip that was used then!

...and they probably based that fruit machine around the doorbell, when they realised they could get a cheap chip that would play a non-copyrighted fruit themed song.  Cool  

YEP!! I can confirm that is the EXACT tune the doorbell played! yes I still remember it well!!! 

My doorbell no longer plays tunes which is why it was decommissioned from my mothers front door several years back. I made it as a present back either in the late 70's or early 80's from a magazine 'everyday electronics', I also bought 'practical electronics' too but I am sure it was from 'everyday electronics'

[johnparker007]

13 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

YEP!! I can confirm that is the EXACT tune the doorbell played! yes I still remember it well!!! 

My doorbell no longer plays tunes which is why it was decommissioned from my mothers front door several years back. I made it as a present back either in the late 70's or early 80's from a magazine 'everyday electronics', I also bought 'practical electronics' too but I am sure it was from 'everyday electronics'

Excellent stuff   Someone may have scanned full .pdf collections of those old magazines somewhere out there, I know there's a lot of scans of old computer mags from around that era... might be a nice nostalgia trip since you used to read them   There's this old collection from a quick look on the high seas, not seeing an early 80s ones though:
Everyday Practical Electronics 1998-11  -  2012-03

I guess the next logical question is, would you be up for sacrificing that chip to the MAME team so it can be decapped and scanned so the machine can ultimately be emulated with sound?  (they have some pro decapper/scanner peeps I believe who do quite complex chips).  It would end up looking like this though:


So it'll definitely be out of action afterwards!

Edited September 15, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

I am actually quite amazed I soldered well way back then with only a antex 25w mains soldering iron!!

sadly I don't think the chip will be any good, it doesn't play anything correctly now, its worse than when it was removed!

 

I think battery vapours have taken its toll on it!

 

I MAY even have the magazine inn the loft I made it from, If I do it will have a circuit diagram in it and I can look into seeing if its permanently bad, or if repairable

 

[johnparker007]

10 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

I am actually quite amazed I soldered well way back then with only a antex 25w mains soldering iron!!

sadly I don't think the chip will be any good, it doesn't play anything correctly now, its worse than when it was removed!

 

I think battery vapours have taken its toll on it!

 

I MAY even have the magazine inn the loft I made it from, If I do it will have a circuit diagram in it and I can look into seeing if its permanently bad, or if repairable

 

Ah buggers... that said, even if the chip doesn't work in a physical board, perhaps the scan would still be fine - it might be one of more of the tiny fly wires that link from the legs to the inner chip itself have corroded and snapped, or another part on the board altogether... doesn't sound too happy though! 

[eagle64]

37 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

I am actually quite amazed I soldered well way back then with only a antex 25w mains soldering iron!!

sadly I don't think the chip will be any good, it doesn't play anything correctly now, its worse than when it was removed!

 

I think battery vapours have taken its toll on it!

 

I MAY even have the magazine inn the loft I made it from, If I do it will have a circuit diagram in it and I can look into seeing if its permanently bad, or if repairable

 

https://worldradiohistory.com/Everyday_Electronics.htm    1971- 2008 ..... 2008 onwards can be found on ebook3000

[andrew96]

19 minutes ago, eagle64 said:

https://worldradiohistory.com/Everyday_Electronics.htm    1971- 2008 ..... 2008 onwards can be found on ebook3000

cool!! thanks!!

feb 1979,  I made this at age 14

[eagle64]

3 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

cool!! thanks!!

feb 1979,  I made this at age 14

page 77  (15)

 

[SomeRandomGuy]

2 hours ago, andrew96 said:

OMG are you kidding me!!!!!!

I actually bought one of those chips back in the day and made a doorbell

Well daaaamn, what a coincidence, that's def the right chip!

1 hour ago, andrew96 said:

sadly I don't think the chip will be any good, it doesn't play anything correctly now, its worse than when it was removed!

Even if the chip is dead then I don't think mask ROM suffers from bit rot, so in theory it should still be decappable as long as it hasn't blown up or something, I'm not an expert on this though. That being said there's no rush in getting this dumped, it's just for one obscure game, though if you're interested then I can ask around

And some more progress on stuff that isn't Oranges And Lemons: Fiesta (Fire Cracker rebuild) is now in and I've identified 2 of the mystery ROMs - Bell Trail and Spin Up, which is a Double It rebuild. Definitely not expecting to make it in for this month anymore though, with all the TMS1000 discoveries and Bell Trail having needed more emulation of things it wants it's own way, and this is probably not the end of it. Getting closer though

Edited September 15, 2022 by SomeRandomGuy

[andrew96]

so it was actually in use as a doorbell for nearly 40 years before being removed for a wireless doorbell when it finally started playing up playing tunes! I vaguely remember it started to play the tunes fast! usually it meant the batteries were low and replacing them bought it back to working, but on the last battery change it didn't!! blimey what memories!!

 

it appears to play the first note right, then go into 'manic' mode!

[eagle64]

I believe the designer of that version of chip was a guy called Robin Palmer.  From an interview he did  " At that time my company, Chromatronics was based in Harlow Essex. However all our sales went through CEL Electronics Ltd; also my company. In 1981, the business moved to saffron Walden Essex, about 30 km south of Cambridge"....

 

If anyone is interested this is the link to that interview:

http://www.eyetrap.net/Chromascope_Video_Synthesizer.html

[andrew96]

ahhh!!!! I was hoping it was going to be the clock!! the article in the mag says it runs at 400khz, mine is running at 360khz so if anything should be slightly slow tunes!! so it definitely looks buggered!!

But there is some good information on how it works in the magazine!