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@Altharic @johnparker007 @SomeRandomGuy you guys are astonishing me with these skills!!

now i don't pretend to understand any of it so please excuse me if this is non-viable or just not time efficient etc but is there any way you could get spAce working as the reels have a different board??? (very limited knowledge so excuse incorrectness) but oooh what a carry on was a £3 jp game i adored that has a classic built with lamps and alpha all working in mfme but the reel driver is not??

once again sorry to take away from the progress reports but most of the above is already a dream coming true so i thought i'd ask in the slim chance it's easier than not.. i know @MPU_FIVE owns the machine so maybe the internals are needed and can be facilitated easily over not??

once again guys awesome work.. thanks for it all

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On 16/08/2022 at 23:35, DippyDave said:

Sorry if you get a lot of requests like this but is there any chance that Ace Video's Sidewinder can be added?

Added to the request sheet, but it's a long time before it'll go in as I'm currently working on a growing project on MAME (FME internal layout/config stuff).  Plus I need cab model and vid screen component setting up.

11 hours ago, woodsy said:

@Altharic @johnparker007 @SomeRandomGuy you guys are astonishing me with these skills!!

now i don't pretend to understand any of it so please excuse me if this is non-viable or just not time efficient etc but is there any way you could get spAce working as the reels have a different board??? (very limited knowledge so excuse incorrectness) but oooh what a carry on was a £3 jp game i adored that has a classic built with lamps and alpha all working in mfme but the reel driver is not??

once again sorry to take away from the progress reports but most of the above is already a dream coming true so i thought i'd ask in the slim chance it's easier than not.. i know @MPU_FIVE owns the machine so maybe the internals are needed and can be facilitated easily over not??

once again guys awesome work.. thanks for it all

If the reel MCU is not implemented in MFME it'd be a case of waiting for it to be supported in MAME.  At that point the reel MCU can either be dumped (there is one ACE reel MCU dump now with the MAME team, otherwise it'll be reverse engineering it, they're 'relatively' simple hardware... so we can record what comes in, what CPU is expecting back etc, and slowly get it working through trial and error.

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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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14 hours ago, woodsy said:

@Altharic @johnparker007 @SomeRandomGuy you guys are astonishing me with these skills!!

now i don't pretend to understand any of it so please excuse me if this is non-viable or just not time efficient etc but is there any way you could get spAce working as the reels have a different board??? (very limited knowledge so excuse incorrectness) but oooh what a carry on was a £3 jp game i adored that has a classic built with lamps and alpha all working in mfme but the reel driver is not??

once again sorry to take away from the progress reports but most of the above is already a dream coming true so i thought i'd ask in the slim chance it's easier than not.. i know @MPU_FIVE owns the machine so maybe the internals are needed and can be facilitated easily over not??

once again guys awesome work.. thanks for it all

2 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

Added to the request sheet, but it's a long time before it'll go in as I'm currently working on a growing project on MAME (FME internal layout/config stuff).  Plus I need cab model and vid screen component setting up.

If the reel MCU is not implemented in MFME it'd be a case of waiting for it to be supported in MAME.  At that point the reel MCU can either be dumped (there is one ACE reel MCU dump now with the MAME team, otherwise it'll be reverse engineering it, they're 'relatively' simple hardware... so we can record what comes in, what CPU is expecting back etc, and slowly get it working through trial and error.

Well as far as feasibility goes there aren't any blockers for sp.ACE really, it's pretty well documented and all relevant ROMs should be dumped. The reel MCU is not a problem, there's a version of the ACE one dumped and the PCP one as well (which is the problematic one for MFME in the first place). Unfortunately actually emulating it would not be a quick job, not much existing code to work from that some of the techs have in MAME. Currently I'm still committed to doing all the older techs first and slowly moving up to the newer ones, simpler that way. So not right now, sorry, maybe one of the other guys might look at it once MPU4 is dealt with though, you never know :D

Been a while without progress reports so here's one: Black Box work has advanced so far that I now have a driver going, as of right now 21 Up is very close to 100% working :). The plan for now is to get all the older EM reel games going, then I can do the stepper games sometime later. Bellfruit used the tech for quite a while so there's some expansion stuff I've gotta implement later on. Fair amount of mystery ROMs I've found as well, wonder if any Dutch games are going to pop up again :D

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5 hours ago, SomeRandomGuy said:

Well as far as feasibility goes there aren't any blockers for sp.ACE really, it's pretty well documented and all relevant ROMs should be dumped. The reel MCU is not a problem, there's a version of the ACE one dumped and the PCP one as well (which is the problematic one for MFME in the first place). Unfortunately actually emulating it would not be a quick job, not much existing code to work from that some of the techs have in MAME. Currently I'm still committed to doing all the older techs first and slowly moving up to the newer ones, simpler that way. So not right now, sorry, maybe one of the other guys might look at it once MPU4 is dealt with though, you never know :D

Been a while without progress reports so here's one: Black Box work has advanced so far that I now have a driver going, as of right now 21 Up is very close to 100% working :). The plan for now is to get all the older EM reel games going, then I can do the stepper games sometime later. Bellfruit used the tech for quite a while so there's some expansion stuff I've gotta implement later on. Fair amount of mystery ROMs I've found as well, wonder if any Dutch games are going to pop up again :D

Well I’m just gobsmacked that you can do it and that sone regardless of the time is such a welcome post!! I really respect you guys for doing the work you do and really admire your tenacity and patience with the details you must face on the way! Thanks for the update and good luck as always

@johnparker007

Edited by woodsy
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@SomeRandomGuy great work, sounds like you're making good progress on the Blackbox tech :)  

I've found a good use for your decrypted .fml generation ;)  For the original Arcade Sim fruit machines, plus the few test MAME internal converted classic layouts, I'd been using my original (slow and manual) approach of loading all the versions to find best one, and building up a scraping/extraction config from there.  I realised it's going to take an insane amount of time, so more automation required.

There's so many layouts (many thousands), so I'm currently coming at this whole MAME layouts/configs/dips etc from a new angle. 

I've downloaded and unzipped the entire Legacy section (massive thanks as always to @Geddy for his tireless work on that resource :) ).  From here I've made a thing to set up initial layout params in a new layout database.  So now, I'm working on something that copies in the modified MFME exe, so for each layout, it loads it, takes a screenshot, and saves a decrypted .fml.  From the fixed header info of that decrypted fml  I can grab the Window title that I use for scraping, if the layout gets selected for extraction.  There's more in progress, pulling out the .gam file contents to fields in this new database of layouts etc.

An example WIP auto-built layout entry in the new layout database (I'm just using the 5x AC Games layouts to test with first):
image.thumb.png.c02de9efdbe60a2c8b049f2b3bddd216.png

The idea is to get as much automated as possible, then have it more streamlined for me to whizz through, and mark the 'best' Classic (or PDX, where there's no Classic, or finally best DX) layout (not always the most recent, as some of the later ones substitute raw text for some graphics on some lamps etc, which is not what we want for building a MAME text-based layout).

I'm hoping later to also set up some stuff to pull out all the folders for a certain platform (e.g: all MPU4 layouts, all JPM SRU layouts etc)... and something to then add extra layouts in that are not in the legacy section as needed).

It's all a bit of a mega grind at the mo, but overall should be less work in the end... The idea is I'll focus on platforms that are being actively worked on first, so Scorpion 5 / MPU5 etc can wait for a bit... as there's a lot of work when factoring in building the text based reels for each one as well, so I'd imagine once I've done say 500 layouts for active platforms with configs/dips/ROM CRC etc for MAME, I can come back to Arcade Sim for a change of work, without holding up the MAME dev stuff :) 

Edited by johnparker007
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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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The MAME work is still an ever-growing task at present, but making progress on at least the early stages... and some of the tools/process being developed will also benefit direct ArcadeSim DX extractions :) 

The relevant gam file data is now extracted for the ~7000 layouts from legacy section. 

I've been finding workaround for preliminary extraction issues, got around ~1500 through preliminary extraction.  So for an example layout, here we have the relevant static gam file data populated, and also the window title, which is useful for setting up next stage of extraction for the 'selected' layouts.
image.thumb.png.de081b5c90683e9007702895adcf915f.png

The window title (circled in pink) is extracted from a truncated copy of the raw decrypted layout header (thanks again to @SomeRandomGuy, it's real handy to have this :) ).  I'm also retaining a zipped copy of the full decrypted layout (they are larger than normal due to no compression) for future use, if I ever go down that road.

It also takes a screenshot of each layout, again speeds up me being able to verify the auto-selected layout for classic conversion is the most appropriate one (the latest one is not always the best, sometimes earlier ones have less images and more text which we want).
image.thumb.png.ef69273625d5fab475b72ae5c08e1446.png

Edited by johnparker007
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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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18 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

The window title (circled in pink) is extracted from a truncated copy of the raw decrypted layout header (thanks again to @SomeRandomGuy, it's real handy to have this :) ).  I'm also retaining a zipped copy of the full decrypted layout (they are larger than normal due to no compression) for future use, if I ever go down that road.

That's great to hear, keep up the good work :) Black Box progress has been slow but steady, some bits of it were not as simple as I originally thought and needed more time to work out. I've made a fair amount of progress by now, most of the base hardware is done and more games should start going in once I get the sound board going.

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4 hours ago, SomeRandomGuy said:

That's great to hear, keep up the good work :) Black Box progress has been slow but steady, some bits of it were not as simple as I originally thought and needed more time to work out. I've made a fair amount of progress by now, most of the base hardware is done and more games should start going in once I get the sound board going.

Brill to hear you're still progressing on Black Box :D JPM SRU, MPU1, and now Black Box in what sounds like very solid progress, super impressive work man :) 

1 hour ago, Altharic said:

Excellent news on both counts @johnparker007 how do you plan on putting these into MAME are they suddenly going to find 7000 layouts in MAME one build?

Fortunately while there are like 7k layouts in the legacy section, I think that only represents about 3k individual machines (give or take a few hundred) - there are often multiple revisions of classic/Dx layouts per machine, esp. for popular games.  I am probably going to try do something so I can work some later parts of this by platform... so that after some big initial work, I can then do the second/third/final stages on just all MPU4 platform games for instance.  As those later stages will take much longer due to more non-automatable stuff, and I don't need to be focusing on full extraction/layouts/configs/etc for certain platforms that won't be working for a good while yet.  I did ask if 2k-3k layouts would be too many, but no-one replied, so I'm assuming it's a non-issue.

Edited by johnparker007
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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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40 minutes ago, Altharic said:

Reminds me when Mah-jong games went in mame no one cared until it happened 

Cuavas and Haze are on the thread, and they both are on board with the FME stuff so I think it's all fine.  Just checked and latest Windows MAME is at 293MB... so if it added a few MB or maybe tens of MB I'm sure it'd be ok - they should compress down very well in the exe, compared to their text-based XML source :)  

It's a general problem at present with MAME I guess, now it's on it's new path to emulate pretty much everything - the executable will just keep growing and growing...

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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Its really cool what you guys do here with mame and arcadesim. That keeps the fruity scene alive. Respect guys.

Is something planned like an editor for mame that we can build layouts directly for mame ? Especialy when a rom does not run in mfme but runs in mame while techs come in .

Keep up the good work. Greetings from germany.

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40 minutes ago, Spidy21982 said:

Its really cool what you guys do here with mame and arcadesim. That keeps the fruity scene alive. Respect guys.

Is something planned like an editor for mame that we can build layouts directly for mame ? Especialy when a rom does not run in mfme but runs in mame while techs come in .

Keep up the good work. Greetings from germany.

Hey Spidy :)  Unfortunately there is nothing planned for that at present, it's a convoluted and problematic workflow to get from MFME layout to MAME layout.  One day there will be a general purpose MAME layout builder (to build layouts for all types of machines)... but it would take too long to write at present, I have years of work lined up with existing MAME/ArcadeSim tasks.  But it would be a great separate project for another coder to have a crack at!

For some layouts like the new MPU1- as they have less lamps than modern machines, we should be able to get a source classic layout working in MFME than then builds to MAME internal.  Then that MFME classic could be built into a DX (it wouldn't run in MFME, and would be set up as say MPU3).  Then when the DX looks good, I can build an ArcadeSim machine from it... not a great workflow, but we will probably find a crude way for now.

Ultimately I will perhaps make a fruit machine layout editor for ArcadeSim, and in theory it could have a MAME export function... but this could be like 5 years away, I suspect someone will write a native .lay editor before then :)

When I do have all the MAME work done and some MAME machines running in Arcade Sim, then I'll be able to get back to building more fruit machines with your models... all still planned :) Thanks again so much for all your work on those, and just to reassure once again, that they've not been forgotten, I've just got to do all this other MAME-related work first, but it will be worth it in the end, as will give us cool new features like instant startups from save states etc.

39 minutes ago, Altharic said:

As it grows you never know they might make a subtarget I usually compile my own MAME and create a mess and an arcade build old habits from when I used to compile on my Raspberry pi used to take hours and hours to compile 

When I have MAME working under ArcadeSim in hopefully the final implementation (will retain support for MFME on Windows for newer machines not in MAME yet etc), I will probably make a fork for more custom functionality if it can't be justified in the main branch, and at that point I'd probably make two MAME builds, one containing just video games, and one containing just fruit machines (there's already pinball build for VPEngine).... though initially I'm planning to get it so I can use the standard release MAME.exe (or equivalent Linux/MacOS builds)... as that would be very clean.

Edited by johnparker007
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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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On 26/08/2022 at 18:39, Altharic said:

Excellent news on both counts @johnparker007 how do you plan on putting these into MAME are they suddenly going to find 7000 layouts in MAME one build?

I wouldn't surprised, 0.247 already has about 330gigs added upon 0.246.........before anyone get's excited hoping it's the LD's like the Doomsday Project, it's just more Dance type games. :)

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Looks like someone was tinkering with LDs in MAME a few months back:

In terms of Arcade Sim, in theory I could hook up Daphne laserdisk emulator, though it would be far more preferable to try stimulate interest in getting the relevant work done in MAME (in the long term view, I'm trying to decouple it from being Windows OS only, so it can then run on phones/tablets/consoles with shared multiplayer across all internet-connected platforms via x-platform MAME builds, so MAME is the path for cross-platform).

1 hour ago, niallquinn said:

I wouldn't surprised, 0.247 already has about 330gigs added upon 0.246.........before anyone get's excited hoping it's the LD's like the Doomsday Project, it's just more Dance type games. :)

These new internal classic layouts will only inflate the standalone MAME program (.exe file etc), romset collection  sizes will not be affected (that said, there's a ton of new roms on hereat Dif that aren't in MAME yet, more work for the future  :))

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[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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Laser disc games were great to see but not fun to play they looked like mini cartoons but take Dragons Lair you missed the move by a nano second and you were dead remember seeing the completion tips in Amiga Format it read like l,r,l,l,r,r,r, draw sword, jump l,r,l,r,l finish game

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Yeah those fixed input ones like Dragon's Lair were commonish, along with big screen gun shooters like Mad Dog Mcree, that had an Amiga in them doing the genlock/overlay (was pretty unusual to have an Amiga inside an arcade game!).

William's tried this, I think there may be some use of pan 'n' scan going on, the racers I believe are sprite overdraw... so more like a traditional (if slightly rigid) racer, but with better background graphics than any racer - it was a bit of a flop I think, but I saw one being tested (in a sitdown Hang On cabinet) in Cleethorpes, and I remember being totally blown away at the time... as I had no idea how it was doing those graphics :) 

If you skip forward in this old promo tape rip, you can see just the LD background layer of just the top background, but without the disk rot:

 

Edited by johnparker007
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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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Got a bit busy lately but the Black Box work continues. Upstairs N Downstairs and it's upgrade Reel Gambler are now working, that's 2 more off the list :D

On 29/08/2022 at 19:30, serene02 said:

I’m out of the loop with mame dev, are LD’s coming to mame?

I think some Laserdisc games have been in MAME for a while now but Time Traveler is notable for being the first one that was dumped with the Domesday Duplicator, basically it's a device that captures all the data on the disc. Quite important because some games have special data on them that a regular video capture won't get you. Right now there isn't any Laserdisc work going on, but the tools needed are now available if someone takes an interest.

On 30/08/2022 at 15:12, Altharic said:

Laser disc games were great to see but not fun to play they looked like mini cartoons but take Dragons Lair you missed the move by a nano second and you were dead remember seeing the completion tips in Amiga Format it read like l,r,l,l,r,r,r, draw sword, jump l,r,l,r,l finish game

On 30/08/2022 at 16:05, serene02 said:

I have a soft spot for the Laser disc games, the technology was fascinating for 1983, I remember being totally blown away by Dagon’s Lair, the game was rather frustrating for me to play but still amazing watching someone else.  I only ever one Space Ace.

That's most Laserdisc games for ya :D Some of them I enjoy in a so-bad-it's-good kinda way, the 90s American Laser Games lightgun shooters are absolutely glorious cheesefests.

27 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:

William's tried this, I think there may be some use of pan 'n' scan going on, the racers I believe are sprite overdraw... so more like a traditional (if slightly rigid) racer, but with better background graphics than any racer - it was a bit of a flop I think, but I saw one being tested (in a sitdown Hang On cabinet) in Cleethorpes, and I remember being totally blown away at the time... as I had no idea how it was doing those graphics :) 

Yeah, Star Rider has some serious hardware in it for a LD game, will be interesting to see that one emulated :)

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11 hours ago, SomeRandomGuy said:

Got a bit busy lately but the Black Box work continues. Upstairs N Downstairs and it's upgrade Reel Gambler are now working, that's 2 more off the list :D

Awesome news, cool to hear you are still making progress on this new platform! :D  I'm still chipping away at my MAME work, but it's very slow, due to so many source MFME layout files... and no payoff of actual MAME layouts until the near the end :) 

And yeah, Star Rider, from watching that gameplay vid from youtube... looks like when the player steers left/light it's horizontal panning the video.  And then a separate non-panning feed for the 'rear-view mirror' at the bottom... along with some adjustable speed playback for user acceleration after a crash (which instantly pauses playback).  Very ambitious use of the tech :) 
 

9 hours ago, serene02 said:

I’ve seen laser disk roms but where might one get the video files?

There's a massive LD torrent on internet-archive here:
https://archive.org/details/LASERDISC_GAMES

Might be more lurking around the net, this was a very brief search - they might be Chds in there, so if you wanted to extract actual video files for playable in VLC etc you'd prob need a tool of some kind... hope that's of use :) 

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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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