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On 07/04/2021 at 20:27, GeorgeJG said:

Super rare is Pure Madness on the £100 'Novomatic' flat front cab. I think you can even get it on i-bet/i-serve etc, maybe only on the hacked menu though. I quite like Pure Madness as a game and it can streak big, the rest of the Empire Wow from that era are a bit weak in my opinion, pig money etc 

Analogue Madness in a near by Mecca is on ticket in/ticket out but that is a very rare set up, as rare as seeing one on a digital Astra/Novo cab. The big streak can even empty a £350 hopper at times!

 

 

I do have Pure Madness £100 on my Magic Party (Novomatic / Astra cab, same cab as iPub), will have to have a session on it. Also has the original Bar X game on £100 jackpot, had £100 hold yesterday for £200. Prefer the range of lo-techs on this to my T777, although that does have original Clockwork Oranges (£70 JP I think) whereas the Magic Party cab has Clockwork Oranges 'Five Alive'?. Also has Cops N Robbers themed copy of Casino Crazy Fruits, and some interesting other games, along with the usual 'community' lo-techs with dings for wild reels.

[edit] Just had a quick go on it. It's got the 'Name Fill' thing on it, a bit like the Bar X Extreme and similar. Didn't have a long session but was interesting nonetheless. Have attached a quick photo of it anyway!

Also, despite me saying £100, it's an odd one. It seems to be £25 jackpot on any stake, but does upgrade the values of the symbols somehow - when on the feature my £25 bells upgraded to £50?? Weird. Never a big fan of long sessions on lo-techs in arcades except for things like Bullion Bars, must have been stung a few times on some of the volatile lo-techs in the old days and it put me off them!

madness.jpg

Edited by slotsmagic
Added more on Pure Madness

Currently owned digitals : T7 Encore, T7 Original, Astra iPub and Storm Street Casino.

MFME cabinets : Genesis cab DIY by No1Stoney, Interplay conversion and Vegas Strip conversion (both are works in progress!)

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13 minutes ago, logopolis said:

It's amazing how many machines could still be manipulated in times after this by switching off when it's clocking up or paying out wins.

Couldn't believe it when I found out the BFM's, still trying to figure out how the switching off of a win makes it forget it, cpu must really be shot but it was across the board on many of techs and originated back in the early/mid 80's by the looks of it as have tried Sys83's but not Sys80's so will plod on, flicking isn't the most viable way to empty a machine and it can also be considered illegal but it is something to share and also a great part of history that needs unfold unorthodox as it may sound.

Next instalment coming in a bit and is a 16yr old layout, payout settings were partially incorrect so had to modify that but all good tbh........

 

 

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.................looks like it is ready now, fucked up a fair few skills on this so you will have to excuse the slackness as was working more on speed, from a ram reset and it does like to play up even after 20 quid in it will still take the piss, as it passes the 25 in mark it will go mental.

With thanks to @hitthesix and @midibob for this layout.

 

 

Edited by Big J
Couple of thanks missed
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2 hours ago, slotsmagic said:

I do have Pure Madness £100 on my Magic Party (Novomatic / Astra cab, same cab as iPub), will have to have a session on it. Also has the original Bar X game on £100 jackpot, had £100 hold yesterday for £200. Prefer the range of lo-techs on this to my T777, although that does have original Clockwork Oranges (£70 JP I think) whereas the Magic Party cab has Clockwork Oranges 'Five Alive'?. Also has Cops N Robbers themed copy of Casino Crazy Fruits, and some interesting other games, along with the usual 'community' lo-techs with dings for wild reels.

[edit] Just had a quick go on it. It's got the 'Name Fill' thing on it, a bit like the Bar X Extreme and similar. Didn't have a long session but was interesting nonetheless. Have attached a quick photo of it anyway!

Also, despite me saying £100, it's an odd one. It seems to be £25 jackpot on any stake, but does upgrade the values of the symbols somehow - when on the feature my £25 bells upgraded to £50?? Weird. Never a big fan of long sessions on lo-techs in arcades except for things like Bullion Bars, must have been stung a few times on some of the volatile lo-techs in the old days and it put me off them!

madness.jpg

There are some Pure Madness cabinets about where the bells are £70 Jackpot. It includes the name fill feature as well.

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4 hours ago, logopolis said:

It's amazing how many machines could still be manipulated in times after this by switching off when it's clocking up or paying out wins.

It amazes me too - the clocking up wins is a gimmick - all they had to do was write the win to memory first which even in those days would have took like milliseconds - then go ahead with clocking up the win gimmick which for example goes up say 20p every 5th of a second.

If you take e.g. a Maygay that coughs the money when it powers back up then that would have been correct. i.e. the cough equals the write to memory.

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Your box will be CASHPOT

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TBH I think the quality of coding for machines over the years has been absolutely fucking shocking, pub/arcade fruit machines in particular seemed to slip under the radar when it comes to any sort of scrutiny as they were always classed as 'amusement with prizes', hence escaping the sort of scrutiny that IMO they should have been subjected to as proper gambling.

When I think back to my hardcore addict days, pummelling myself into oblivion, stupidly thinking I had a 'fair chance' and that there's no way machines would be allowed out on the market that were vulnerable to all the sorts of shit we all now know they were, with potentially terrible consequences for those who weren't 'in the know'.

I still consider myself lucky to have got alive, literally, to have escaped with my life. And as per my Gambling Low Ebbs videos, there were times when it got pretty close to the wire.

IMO the core of the problem is compensation, it's just never really been done properly, and indeed one could argue it can't be done 'properly', to my mind the only fair machine is a random machine.

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Fruit machine emulation content from the artist previously known as Degsy Degworth and the odd new thing here and there too - https://www.youtube.com/c/DegsyDegworth

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55 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

IMO the core of the problem is compensation, it's just never really been done properly, and indeed one could argue it can't be done 'properly', to my mind the only fair machine is a random machine.

From my experience of 'random' slots, I'm still not totally sure about them. I've got several random games on my own T7, and without wanting to be too technical, I can repeat the same behaviour on the machine, from the same 'state', whereby it'll block the jackpot for around £800, then drop in a couple of £500s in quick succession. Even if they are 'random', there appears to be some form of compensation / blocking behaviour taking place on the gambles at least, even if not the base game itself.

Mind you not as bad as the Astra compensated slot I was playing yesterday, took £1100 before it offered a feature despite playing on the 'enhanced feature entry chance' £2 autoplay setting. Biggest win up to that point was £35, all gambles would lose before that point.

Anyway after £1100 in it offered a feature, paid £335, gamble to £400 lost. Another couple of spins later, another feature, this time for £360 - and the gamble to £400 lost. After a few more features within the next £40 or so it caved and gambled out, then gave another feature for £335 or so which lost the gamble, then another feature for £365 or so which I took.

Was utterly gobsmacked by it - I appreciate it's compensated but to take that sort of cash while blocking and then paying back-to-back jackpots (effectively, the second £365 I reckon would have gambled out shortly after just like the first) was incredible.

All the more reason for owning machines and staying out of the arcades and bookies I reckon.

 

Edited by slotsmagic
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Currently owned digitals : T7 Encore, T7 Original, Astra iPub and Storm Street Casino.

MFME cabinets : Genesis cab DIY by No1Stoney, Interplay conversion and Vegas Strip conversion (both are works in progress!)

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On 12/05/2021 at 22:41, slotsmagic said:

From my experience of 'random' slots, I'm still not totally sure about them. I've got several random games on my own T7, and without wanting to be too technical, I can repeat the same behaviour on the machine, from the same 'state', whereby it'll block the jackpot for around £800, then drop in a couple of £500s in quick succession. Even if they are 'random', there appears to be some form of compensation / blocking behaviour taking place on the gambles at least, even if not the base game itself.

Mind you not as bad as the Astra compensated slot I was playing yesterday, took £1100 before it offered a feature despite playing on the 'enhanced feature entry chance' £2 autoplay setting. Biggest win up to that point was £35, all gambles would lose before that point.

Anyway after £1100 in it offered a feature, paid £335, gamble to £400 lost. Another couple of spins later, another feature, this time for £360 - and the gamble to £400 lost. After a few more features within the next £40 or so it caved and gambled out, then gave another feature for £335 or so which lost the gamble, then another feature for £365 or so which I took.

Was utterly gobsmacked by it - I appreciate it's compensated but to take that sort of cash while blocking and then paying back-to-back jackpots (effectively, the second £365 I reckon would have gambled out shortly after just like the first) was incredible.

All the more reason for owning machines and staying out of the arcades and bookies I reckon.

 

It's an interesting one and I have always believed there has been some apparently dodgy behaviour even as far back as the Section 16 days.

I have given the example before of Party Games Slotto. Anyone who has played this at length will know that it exhibits compensated like behaviour despite being a "random" machine. It will enter a very dead period and suck money in, then suddenly it will wake up and you will be getting rows of £25 sevens every few spins giving the impression of a streak/enriched period. Sometimes it is obvious it is doing something in the background because you will press start and it will appears to stall for a second or so, then the change in behaviour becomes apparent.

Mathematicians (and no doubt trancemonkey at Casinomeister) will tell you that the machine is definitely random, it is human nature to see patterns and we just remember out of the ordinary/unusual behaviour etc, but this machine will behave in the same way consistently, cycling between dead and enriched £25 periods.

The clone Little Devils will show exactly the same behaviour.

There is a random way that you can program this kind of behaviour, you use rotating pay tables. In one pay table you have loads of £25 wins and very few jackpots to compensate and in another you have more jackpots and very few £25 wins. As the £500 Jackpots are unlikely to hit this then gives the impression whilst that paytable is selected that the machine is very tight. When the pay table with loads of £25 wins is selected you will then see this often but whilst this is selected the entire table may only include say 1 x £500 chance.

I have no idea if this is what is going on on those games and whether it would be compliant with regulations to change pay table versions in play - but as long as all tables meet the same percentage I guess so?

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23 minutes ago, Retrofruit said:

It's an interesting one and I have always believed there has been some apparently dodgy behaviour even as far back as the Section 16 days.

I have given the example before of Party Games Slotto. Anyone who has played this at length will know that it exhibits compensated like behaviour despite being a "random" machine. It will enter a very dead period and suck money in, then suddenly it will wake up and you will be getting rows of £25 sevens every few spins giving the impression of a streak/enriched period. Sometimes it is obvious it is doing something in the background because you will press start and it will appears to stall for a second or so, then the change in behaviour becomes apparent.

Mathematicians (and no doubt trancemonkey at Casinomeister) will tell you that the machine is definitely random, it is human nature to see patterns and we just remember out of the ordinary/unusual behaviour etc, but this machine will behave in the same way consistently, cycling between dead and enriched £25 periods.

The clone Little Devils will show exactly the same behaviour.

There is a random way that you can program this kind of behaviour, you use rotating pay tables. In one pay table you have loads of £25 wins and very few jackpots to compensate and in another you have more jackpots and very few £25 wins. As the £500 Jackpots are unlikely to hit this then gives the impression whilst that paytable is selected that the machine is very tight. When the pay table with loads of £25 wins is selected you will then see this often but whilst this is selected the entire table may only include say 1 x £500 chance.

I have no idea if this is what is going on on those games and whether it would be compliant with regulations to change pay table versions in play - but as long as all tables meet the same percentage I guess so?

I was once told if slotto and the likes starts giving several of the same symbols I.e jackpots on the last theee reels then the main jackpot wasn’t that far away same went for mega slot 

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1 hour ago, Retrofruit said:

It's an interesting one and I have always believed there has been some apparently dodgy behaviour even as far back as the Section 16 days.

I have given the example before of Party Games Slotto. Anyone who has played this at length will know that it exhibits compensated like behaviour despite being a "random" machine. It will enter a very dead period and suck money in, then suddenly it will wake up and you will be getting rows of £25 sevens every few spins giving the impression of a streak/enriched period. Sometimes it is obvious it is doing something in the background because you will press start and it will appears to stall for a second or so, then the change in behaviour becomes apparent.

Mathematicians (and no doubt trancemonkey at Casinomeister) will tell you that the machine is definitely random, it is human nature to see patterns and we just remember out of the ordinary/unusual behaviour etc, but this machine will behave in the same way consistently, cycling between dead and enriched £25 periods.

The clone Little Devils will show exactly the same behaviour.

There is a random way that you can program this kind of behaviour, you use rotating pay tables. In one pay table you have loads of £25 wins and very few jackpots to compensate and in another you have more jackpots and very few £25 wins. As the £500 Jackpots are unlikely to hit this then gives the impression whilst that paytable is selected that the machine is very tight. When the pay table with loads of £25 wins is selected you will then see this often but whilst this is selected the entire table may only include say 1 x £500 chance.

I have no idea if this is what is going on on those games and whether it would be compliant with regulations to change pay table versions in play - but as long as all tables meet the same percentage I guess so?

I was one of the designers of that monstrosity of a game and I could write a book about some of the stuff that went on when it got developed...but I'll probably wait another few years 🤣

Plenty of 'interesting' things (shall we say) happened back in the S16 days but one thing I can assure you of is that the original Party Games Slotto was a 100% genuinely random slot game.  The result of every spin was selected from the same set of tables.  Any perceived patterns in play on that particular slot are simply conjured up by the brain.

What ridiculous times they were though, when those games came out.  It was like the Wild West...absolutely ridiculous looking back.

🌵🌵🌵🤠🐎

 

Edited by stevedude2
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2 hours ago, Retrofruit said:

It's an interesting one and I have always believed there has been some apparently dodgy behaviour even as far back as the Section 16 days.

I have given the example before of Party Games Slotto. Anyone who has played this at length will know that it exhibits compensated like behaviour despite being a "random" machine. It will enter a very dead period and suck money in, then suddenly it will wake up and you will be getting rows of £25 sevens every few spins giving the impression of a streak/enriched period. Sometimes it is obvious it is doing something in the background because you will press start and it will appears to stall for a second or so, then the change in behaviour becomes apparent.

Mathematicians (and no doubt trancemonkey at Casinomeister) will tell you that the machine is definitely random, it is human nature to see patterns and we just remember out of the ordinary/unusual behaviour etc, but this machine will behave in the same way consistently, cycling between dead and enriched £25 periods.

The clone Little Devils will show exactly the same behaviour.

There is a random way that you can program this kind of behaviour, you use rotating pay tables. In one pay table you have loads of £25 wins and very few jackpots to compensate and in another you have more jackpots and very few £25 wins. As the £500 Jackpots are unlikely to hit this then gives the impression whilst that paytable is selected that the machine is very tight. When the pay table with loads of £25 wins is selected you will then see this often but whilst this is selected the entire table may only include say 1 x £500 chance.

I have no idea if this is what is going on on those games and whether it would be compliant with regulations to change pay table versions in play - but as long as all tables meet the same percentage I guess so?

it is random, though its only random within its parametes. imagine a bingo bag full of balls. their a £500 ball, a £250 , but 20 £100....... 20,000 £1 wins, 50,000 50p wins, and 100,000 losses.  in total, all added up it pays out 90% exactly. this is called random random. (astra party time is an example)

 

a compensated random (barcrest t7) is kinda the same bingo bag of balls, except if a £500 drops, it adds extra lose balls into the bag. therefore it can indeed drop another jp at any time, but the odds are miniscule at best.  Its with these parameters or rules in mind, it is 100% random.  if your not quite getting your head around it, try to see it as a percentage based machine, typically 90-92%, but the way it achieves it is totally random.

Edited by nails
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Part games slotto and clone never played the same once they were changed to b3 games. They deffo played differently, hardly ever gave the pick me feature like the sec 16 used to.

Another tell if these were in a happy mood was, the pick me's would always be 15 or 20 quid. When the sec 16 version would do this for a while, a full screen of 7's would show up within so much game play, seen it time and time again.

Edited by Tommy c
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I saw some guys plug one in a local arcade to me, they got it into demo play mode, if I remember correctly it was on free play and the balance would go into negative figures, if you could get the bank with a positive balance it would actually let you collect these wins.

J

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56 minutes ago, serene02 said:

I saw some guys plug one in a local arcade to me, they got it into demo play mode, if I remember correctly it was on free play and the balance would go into negative figures, if you could get the bank with a positive balance it would actually let you collect these wins.

J

About 15 years ago I saw some guys messing around with Party Games in an arcade. One of them was kind of bald and making weird noises and there was a tall one with dark hair and a younger one with glasses who was driving a Golf. I used to see them a few times in arcades around the east coast. Apparently they came from Skegness or Grimsby. 

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On 18/05/2021 at 23:13, logopolis said:

About 15 years ago I saw some guys messing around with Party Games in an arcade. One of them was kind of bald and making weird noises and there was a tall one with dark hair and a younger one with glasses who was driving a Golf. I used to see them a few times in arcades around the east coast. Apparently they came from Skegness or Grimsby. 

I'm surprised he didn't get thrown out for driving in the arcade. 

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On 17/05/2021 at 20:35, nails said:

it is random, though its only random within its parametes. imagine a bingo bag full of balls. their a £500 ball, a £250 , but 20 £100....... 20,000 £1 wins, 50,000 50p wins, and 100,000 losses.  in total, all added up it pays out 90% exactly. this is called random random. (astra party time is an example)

 

a compensated random (barcrest t7) is kinda the same bingo bag of balls, except if a £500 drops, it adds extra lose balls into the bag. therefore it can indeed drop another jp at any time, but the odds are miniscule at best.  Its with these parameters or rules in mind, it is 100% random.  if your not quite getting your head around it, try to see it as a percentage based machine, typically 90-92%, but the way it achieves it is totally random.

This is interesting to me. 

So what you're saying is if someone wins £500, even if the machine is "random", the chances of you winning £500 immediately afterwards are dramatically reduced because it changes the odds of winning it by adding far more chances to lose. That's not random as far as I'd define it. 

A random machine should always have the same chance of winning any of the prizes, and achieve its percentage over an extended period of time, as described by @stevedude2above.

The machine you define is compensated to bring its percentage back to target soon after paying a jackpot. 

Edited by Boulderdash
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On 12/05/2021 at 21:50, Chopaholic said:

TBH I think the quality of coding for machines over the years has been absolutely fucking shocking, pub/arcade fruit machines in particular seemed to slip under the radar when it comes to any sort of scrutiny as they were always classed as 'amusement with prizes', hence escaping the sort of scrutiny that IMO they should have been subjected to as proper gambling.

When I think back to my hardcore addict days, pummelling myself into oblivion, stupidly thinking I had a 'fair chance' and that there's no way machines would be allowed out on the market that were vulnerable to all the sorts of shit we all now know they were, with potentially terrible consequences for those who weren't 'in the know'.

I still consider myself lucky to have got alive, literally, to have escaped with my life. And as per my Gambling Low Ebbs videos, there were times when it got pretty close to the wire.

IMO the core of the problem is compensation, it's just never really been done properly, and indeed one could argue it can't be done 'properly', to my mind the only fair machine is a random machine.

Bell Fruit clubbers of the late 80s and early 90s, like Club Attraction, Explosion etc, were superbly compensated by means of the free cashpots.

A golf club regular could play the game and reliably get some reasonable wins, but almost never win the jackpot. A player could take the cashpots out and make a huge profit without altering the base game for the casual. 

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15 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

This is interesting to me. 

So what you're saying is if someone wins £500, even if the machine is "random", the chances of you winning £500 immediately afterwards are dramatically reduced because it changes the odds of winning it by adding far more chances to lose. That's not random as far as I'd define it. 

A random machine should always have the same chance of winning any of the prizes, and achieve its percentage over an extended period of time, as described by @stevedude2above.

The machine you define is compensated to bring its percentage back to target soon after paying a jackpot. 

some party games i know of never payed a jackpot out it never really offered a win above a ton

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18 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

Bell Fruit clubbers of the late 80s and early 90s, like Club Attraction, Explosion etc, were superbly compensated by means of the free cashpots.

A golf club regular could play the game and reliably get some reasonable wins, but almost never win the jackpot. A player could take the cashpots out and make a huge profit without altering the base game for the casual. 

I'm not entirely sure that's much of a sales pitch for 'superb compensation' TBH!

If the machines had '£150 JACKPOT THAT YOU'LL NEVER WIN UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MY INTERNAL COMPENSATION WORKS' printed on them instead of '£150 JACKPOT', I wonder how many golf club regulars would have been inclined to play them.

Fast forward to the modern era and it's like DOND games that will simply never, ever, offer the DOND game if good players are on top of them.

DEAL OR NO DEAL EXCEPT THERE'S NO DEAL OR NO DEAL GAME ON IT FOR YOU - ASK A PRO PLAYER FOR ADVICE doesn't have quite the same thing as DEAL OR NO DEAL THE POWER FIVE.

Compensation has, IMO, never been done properly and 'securely' for as long as compensated machines have existed. (I mean, really, this thread alone largely demonstrates that.)

(The fact that they've even managed to make random machines 'doable' and/or even predictable is arguably even worse.)

Edited by Chopaholic
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Fruit machine emulation content from the artist previously known as Degsy Degworth and the odd new thing here and there too - https://www.youtube.com/c/DegsyDegworth

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32 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

I'm not entirely sure that's much of a sales pitch for 'superb compensation' TBH!

If the machines had '£150 JACKPOT THAT YOU'LL NEVER WIN UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND HOW MY INTERNAL COMPENSATION WORKS' printed on them instead of '£150 JACKPOT', I wonder how many golf club regulars would have been inclined to play them.

Fast forward to the modern era and it's like DOND games that will simply never, ever, offer the DOND game if good players are on top of them.

DEAL OR NO DEAL EXCEPT THERE'S NO DEAL OR NO DEAL GAME ON IT FOR YOU - ASK A PRO PLAYER FOR ADVICE doesn't have quite the same thing as DEAL OR NO DEAL THE POWER FIVE.

Compensation has, IMO, never been done properly and 'securely' for as long as compensated machines have existed. (I mean, really, this thread alone largely demonstrates that.)

(The fact that they've even managed to make random machines 'doable' and/or even predictable is arguably even worse.)

Maybe you misunderstood my train of thought. 

If a machine is compensated, then any casual punter should reasonably expect that if it has paid out big money it is unlikely to be worth playing for a while. They understand that concept and consider it fair.

By compensating the game with jackpots not damaging the regular playing percentage, however, which would probably only cost about 2% of the stated 80% target, ALL players will get a decent game at all times. 

Compare that to a DOND like Golden Game where someone has taken two or three jackpots, the game is completely fucked and the machine could take £300 before even letting you play the DOND feature. 

So that's what I mean by 'superbly compensated'. You could walk up to the machine and even if a player had taken two £150 cashpots, the RTP would still be a playable 78%

Edited by Boulderdash
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Club Cops and Robbers is a perfect clubber.  I think it’s a superbly balanced game for serious players and regular punters.  Anyone can win on it, It’s only when you play it more that you pick up on how the game behaves.  

You should do a video on it, extremely entertaining machine for sure.

J

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