Causing a bit of a stir.

[Projectgilda]

47 minutes ago, Mort said:

In my completely naïve playing days, that's exactly how I expected feature boards to work.

What's your opinions on stats play Andrew ? I said earlier today that I can't understand how another manufacturer would not be inputting different coins anyway. I understand if you can't comment, I just don't get this £1 only anti-stat's mode the more I think and mull it over.

I don't know if it was a thing or not. But other manufacturers weren't so daft as to put only £1's in. Like I said earlier, we tested with various denominations, letting it go out of credit for a couple of minutes, leaving part credits in nothing was left to chance. So even if it was a thing it wouldn't have kicked in the way we play tested other companies products.

[StaceyD]

11 hours ago, Hamsun said:

A shark basically. I hate sharking. You almost always found a few in busy arcades, often apparently friendly with the staff. Either the staff were stupid or corrupt or a bit of both. It's one of the reasons I stopped going to arcades, even when they contained emptiable machines [getting barred for winning was another reason...].

To my mind a'pro' is a player who has advanced skills and knowledge and targets specific machines, often travelling around the country to find them.

Sharks target other players, pros target certain machines.

There is a grey area in between, of course. To be honest, neither are particularly nice ways to make money.

yes I agree there is a big difference between players and pros

[Mort]

8 hours ago, Projectgilda said:

I don't know if it was a thing or not. But other manufacturers weren't so daft as to put only £1's in. Like I said earlier, we tested with various denominations, letting it go out of credit for a couple of minutes, leaving part credits in nothing was left to chance. So even if it was a thing it wouldn't have kicked in the way we play tested other companies products.

Thanks for confirming what I thought with respect to any proper stats play testing would use all inputs and different styles of play. The more I think about it, it doesn't really make much sense, but another bit of history about fruit machine development to understand and from my point of view to take that information to make playing MFME more exact. We spent far too many years in FME just using £1 input exclusively.

[thealteredemu]

I've never really noticed any crazy stuff regarding stat play, how did it really affect the machine.  It seems a massive undertaking which would require stack more code if they are implementing multiple profile switch between coin inputs.

Do we have an example of a machine that definitely has stat play coded in.  Especially an AWP as it would be easier to test with regard to the streak profile being held back etc.

J

[edwardb]

21 hours ago, thealteredemu said:

I've never really noticed any crazy stuff regarding stat play, how did it really affect the machine.  It seems a massive undertaking which would require stack more code if they are implementing multiple profile switch between coin inputs.

Do we have an example of a machine that definitely has stat play coded in.  Especially an AWP as it would be easier to test with regard to the streak profile being held back etc.

J

No it was extremely easy. Just keep a track of the last n coins inserted. If all £1s, then just set a flag "statsPlayDetected", and when you next look up a % chance of something happening e.g. holds, nudges, etc, just divide that chance by 2 or whatever.

Literally 3 lines of code, a 5 min job. Fruit machine code really isn't as complex as people seem to think it is. One day I'll do a YouTube live stream and we can look over the code for some games together....

[edwardb]

On 25/08/2025 at 23:37, Projectgilda said:

I don't know if it was a thing or not. But other manufacturers weren't so daft as to put only £1's in. Like I said earlier, we tested with various denominations, letting it go out of credit for a couple of minutes, leaving part credits in nothing was left to chance. So even if it was a thing it wouldn't have kicked in the way we play tested other companies products.

We did all sorts, but in some of our games (from memory, and it has been a long time, but I think Disco Inferno, Wet n Wild, Top Gears and Pac Man Plus) we would just mess with whatever value we got from a chance table if we detected the last (IIRC) 100 coins being all £1s. It was only ever to mess with other manufacturers stats playing machines - it never really happened on site (we logged all that kind of data and I used to visit sites with a laptop or Psion - remember them? - and downloaded it via the infra-red transmitter LED in our machines. That's what the small black circle at the top of BFM cabinets was for, in case no-one knew....).
 

[Boulderdash]

9 minutes ago, edwardb said:

We did all sorts, but in some of our games (from memory, and it has been a long time, but I think Disco Inferno, Wet n Wild, Top Gears and Pac Man Plus) we would just mess with whatever value we got from a chance table if we detected the last (IIRC) 100 coins being all £1s. It was only ever to mess with other manufacturers stats playing machines - it never really happened on site (we logged all that kind of data and I used to visit sites with a laptop or Psion - remember them? - and downloaded it via the infra-red transmitter LED in our machines. That's what the small black circle at the top of BFM cabinets was for, in case no-one knew....).
 

Top Gears etc were from the era that the machine only paid out £1 coins, so almost no one would be putting in anything other than £1 or notes.

It also had a thing on it where you could usually gamble right up the trail. Can't remember if it was an emptier or just a glitch...

[thealteredemu]

1 hour ago, edwardb said:

We did all sorts, but in some of our games (from memory, and it has been a long time, but I think Disco Inferno, Wet n Wild, Top Gears and Pac Man Plus) we would just mess with whatever value we got from a chance table if we detected the last (IIRC) 100 coins being all £1s. It was only ever to mess with other manufacturers stats playing machines - it never really happened on site (we logged all that kind of data and I used to visit sites with a laptop or Psion - remember them? - and downloaded it via the infra-red transmitter LED in our machines. That's what the small black circle at the top of BFM cabinets was for, in case no-one knew....).
 

@edwardbThanks for the replies.  Yeah I had a think about it when I posted and realised it would actually be a fairly easy thing to do.

So how did it affect play overall, by all accounts and going by chops latest video it could hold back the streak pot on machines.

J

[Chopaholic]

1 minute ago, thealteredemu said:

@edwardbThanks for the replies.  Yeah I had a think about it when I posted and realised it would actually be a fairly easy thing to do.

So how did it affect play overall, by all accounts and going by chops latest video it could hold back the streak pot on machines.

J

Exactly what I said in the video, that was basically all taken from @edwardb's posts over the years here and at Fruit-Emu  

[thealteredemu]

It’s pretty mental, like I’ve said I’ve never really had any crazy experiences on slots in the wild and I played a lot.  Maybe in the wild it was rare to go into stat mode, especially seaside resorts as other coins would also be used.

Maybe a pub would be more prone to exhibit any stat play.

J

Edited August 27, 2025 by thealteredemu

[thealteredemu]

@edwardb You stated this in your post 

It was only ever to mess with other manufacturers stats playing machines - it never really happened on site.

So was it rare for a machine to go into stat mode, is that what you mean with that statement?

J

[edwardb]

40 minutes ago, thealteredemu said:

@edwardb You stated this in your post 

It was only ever to mess with other manufacturers stats playing machines - it never really happened on site.

So was it rare for a machine to go into stat mode, is that what you mean with that statement?

J

Correct - even though machines only paid out £1s, a load of shrapnel (change from a pint!) went into them and so it never really happened......we metered all sorts and it just never happened. 

[edwardb]

On 04/08/2025 at 15:43, Projectgilda said:

Well it started friendly enough. Then high horses got shipped out, bit disappointing. I'm not a guru with all the answers. Just a bloke who did a job he enjoyed and produced some things that not only people enjoyed but that I'm very proud of. It's rich people stating facts that I know aren't true but it's water off a ducks back as far as I'm concerned. I'll say it one more time. There was lots of dodgy stuff going on from other manufacturers: final credit perks, not collecting your bank, holding pots to name but a few. I didn't do a single one of those things and didn't need to, my games spoke for themselves. Only the chasers resorted to nefarious means to boost their test results. I've met hundreds of people's with theories about how best to play a machine, including mine, I take most with a pinch of salt. Here people seem more knowledgeable than most and it's always interesting to hear their views. But in a respectful manner.

Yep, likewise. All of my games were legit - export games all had to be approved by the Govt in whichever country and so (in Holland, in particular) the source code was taken apart by a lab.

In the UK the dodgy machines were always from two-bit outfits in a lock-up garage somewhere, knocking out crap copies of Bar-X or whatever. You know the types. It was never the big manufacturers - too much at stake.

[Chopaholic]

1 minute ago, edwardb said:

Yep, likewise. All of my games were legit - export games all had to be approved by the Govt in whichever country and so (in Holland, in particular) the source code was taken apart by a lab.

In the UK the dodgy machines were always from two-bit outfits in a lock-up garage somewhere, knocking out crap copies of Bar-X or whatever. You know the types. It was never the big manufacturers - too much at stake.

Well, I mean apart from the deliberately coded-in compensator attract mode tell in Union Jackpot which was made by JPM and went on general release, and the guy would have done plenty more except for the fact he 'bottled it'.

[Cavey]

As a matter of interest, did this "Stats Play" ever apply to - and affect - clubbers? (Or casino machines, come to that; say £500-£1000JP)

It would be particularly concerning in their case, since many consecutive players would be pumping pound coins (exclusively) into them, not the increasingly apocryphal and so called "change from a round" player.

[thealteredemu]

So stat play was a thing but never really happened on site.  That would tally with my experience of my playing days.  I dare say in some extreme circumstances it could happen.  I guess it all depends on the parameters for any stat play to be initiated.   If it was mainly to mess with competitors then it's likely they will play 1000's of spins to try and find out how all the mechanics work whereas in a pub or seaside resort it would be unusualy to have 1000's of pounds without any other coins etc.

J

 

[thealteredemu]

@CaveyI was thinking about club machines as they aren't one of those 'just try my loose change in' kind of slots, but maybe EdwardB has also took readings and found no stat play running on those too.  On their brand machines at least.

I guess you'd need to know the tipping point for stat play to activate, so say 3000 pound coins without any other lower demoninations.  That number could be higher, maybe EdwardB could indulge us with the amount required to set off stat play, might help determine whether this actively affected normal punters.

J 

 

[Chopaholic]

25 minutes ago, thealteredemu said:

So stat play was a thing but never really happened on site.  That would tally with my experience of my playing days.  I dare say in some extreme circumstances it could happen.  I guess it all depends on the parameters for any stat play to be initiated.   If it was mainly to mess with competitors then it's likely they will play 1000's of spins to try and find out how all the mechanics work whereas in a pub or seaside resort it would be unusualy to have 1000's of pounds without any other coins etc.

J

 

In his posts on Fruit-Emu about it the words edwardb used were 'it was very rare', not that it never happened. (i.e. Machines had been found on site that had gone into stats play mode.)

I'd also question how much data they had on it too, since this was before the days of remote diagnostic data collection, so unless a machine had the data dumped from it onsite, they would have been in the 'unknown' column. There's every chance a machine was in a remote pub in Scotland that had gone into stats play mode that they never knew about.

Either way it's just not on anyway, deliberately coding in behaviour that dynamically changes a compensated machine's play profile into 'garbled bag of shit' mode as part of manufacturers having a willy waving competition with each other, that absolutely could (and did) catch normal players in the crossfire, is just yet another nail in the coffin of compensated machines and their unacceptable behaviour.

[Chopaholic]

19 minutes ago, thealteredemu said:

@CaveyI was thinking about club machines as they aren't one of those 'just try my loose change in' kind of slots, but maybe EdwardB has also took readings and found no stat play running on those too.  On their brand machines at least.

I guess you'd need to know the tipping point for stat play to activate, so say 3000 pound coins without any other lower demoninations.  That number could be higher, maybe EdwardB could indulge us with the amount required to set off stat play, might help determine whether this actively affected normal punters.

J 

 

That's not what he said!

[thealteredemu]

My apologies, but edwardB said it never really happened going by his readings.  I'm not saying I agree with stat play, be nice to know the tipping point, how many consecutive games just playing £1 on an an AWP before it goes into stat mode.  I'd love to know that tipping point.

J

[edwardb]

1 hour ago, Chopaholic said:

Well, I mean apart from the deliberately coded-in compensator attract mode tell in Union Jackpot which was made by JPM and went on general release, and the guy would have done plenty more except for the fact he 'bottled it'.

I know I mentioned elsewhere that there was the odd thing put in on purpose. The one on an Ace machine was a good example of someone doing this, getting caught and going to prison for fraud. How to end your career (and freedom) in a few lines of code.

[Projectgilda]

18 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

r way it's just not on anyway, deliberately coding in behaviour that dynamically changes a compensated machine's play profile into 'garbled bag of shit' mode as part of manufacturers having a willy waving competition with each other, that absolutely could (and did) catch normal players in the crossfire, is just yet another nail in the coffin of compensated machines and their unacceptable behaviour.

You only need a crumb to 'diss the industry. e.g. VW has dodgy cars with fake emissions, therefore the car industry is bent, because i had a car that I lost a fortune on as soon as I drove it off the forecourt. Fingers burnt = dodgy?!

Any excuse.

[Cavey]

47 minutes ago, thealteredemu said:

@CaveyI was thinking about club machines as they aren't one of those 'just try my loose change in' kind of slots, but maybe EdwardB has also took readings and found no stat play running on those too.  On their brand machines at least.

I guess you'd need to know the tipping point for stat play to activate, so say 3000 pound coins without any other lower demoninations.  That number could be higher, maybe EdwardB could indulge us with the amount required to set off stat play, might help determine whether this actively affected normal punters.

J 

 

Yeah it would be good to have the definitive answer from one of the coders.  

[Cavey]

7 minutes ago, Projectgilda said:

You only need a crumb to 'diss the industry. e.g. VW has dodgy cars with fake emissions, therefore the car industry is bent, because i had a car that I lost a fortune on as soon as I drove it off the forecourt. Fingers burnt = dodgy?!

Any excuse.

Chopley will be the first to say we don't see eye to eye on many things and have had a right load of ding dongs in the past, but FWIW I'm totally with him on this one. If "the industry" didn't want their competitors dissecting their machines, then they should've gone about it in a way that did not - however rarely - give rise to normal punters being adversely affected by invisible "Stat Play" code or whatever. 

[Projectgilda]

1 minute ago, Cavey said:

Chopley will be the first to say we don't see eye to eye on many things and have had a right load of ding dongs in the past, but FWIW I'm totally with him on this one. If "the industry" didn't want their competitors dissecting their machines, then they should've gone about it in a way that did not - however rarely - give rise to normal punters being adversely affected by invisible "Stat Play" code or whatever. 

There's no proof that it ever did. JPM never did it, nor projectcoin or Barcrest. If Ace or Crystal did I'm sure I'd have found out. So we're limiting it down somewhat.