Causing a bit of a stir.

[Hamsun]

3 hours ago, dondplayer said:

the £70 era was MASSIVE

I had already given up by the £70 era. I heard about DOND, of course (it was all over the internet, for one thing) but I didn't want to get involved as I had moved onto other, less stressful pursuits. But I stand by the 'writing on the wall bit' - without major exploits, AWPS had become virtually unplayable after the £25 JP era and are now in terminal (:-/) decline.

Edited August 25, 2025 by Hamsun

[Chopaholic]

16 hours ago, Ze Frog said:

I kind of get that viewpoint to a degree, but really are the pro players really the ones to blame? I knew very little in methods, so am far and away from a pro player, but even the things I did know that gave me an edge, I still think it's completely wrong and bent, and thought as much even at the time as it was clear for every snippet of information gained, somebody out there was always knowing far more. The problem is, if there's an exploit, people will use it if they can, that's just human nature, but I would guess a lot of people felt uncomfortable with the fact even if it was making them big money. This becomes especially prevalent if you have been in the position of getting completely battered by machines before gaining the knowledge. Like in Degsy's videos, there are some points where you can tell he is actually remorseful and was so at the time, as everyone who didn't know was living the hell he did before gaining such knowledge.

The industry and it's regulators are the real problem, fruit machines could be fair and not completely bent and broken, and all at a time when coding was far more of a dark art. It's clear that the industry got lazy and complacent, no doubt due to greed at the corporate level. When you think how many machines there were everywhere, it's clear companies went bust and coding and design suffered because the bulk of the money from the machines was sent to the top to be siphoned off rather than allowing a team with enough members and skill to create these things after a point. Instead as per Projectgilda saying, time constraints and more and more unreasonable demands on shrinking and less interested team members lead to a complete death spiral for the fruit machine, and in turn left the door open to ever shoddier code and design that allowed things to get completely out of hand. By the £70 era it was pretty clear that all the love and creativity had long since died.

Just giving this post a highlight as it's a very good summary IMO.

Decent AWPs clearly were possible. One I've been thinking about recently as part of a series of videos I'd like to make (and am intending to), is Barcrest's Luxor in its original £6 token jackpot incarnation. This was decent enough even on pub/arcade percentages, but chuck it up to 84% and you've got yourself a really nice little game, that had, as far as I'm aware, nothing on it.

There were lots of AWPs that managed to do it right. No one who played machines, either as an addict or a casual player or a pro player, or anything in-between, or some or all of them at different times - ever asked the industry to make fuckable machines, and the regulator to be asleep on the job.

As I've said many times in my videos, I don't blame the players at all, the blame has to be laid at the feet of the industry and the regulator.

[Manana]

23 hours ago, Chopaholic said:

I replied specifically to slotsmagic's post earlier in the thread (linked below).

As someone who spent a decade losing, and then a decade 'winning', I've seen it from both sides of the equation, and as I've repeatedly noted both here at DIF and in my videos, winning comes with its own costs too.

I am very much of the opinion that most 'players' are, like me, ex-addicts who managed to get a bit of a clue one way or another, and were so far down the rabbit hole of addiction by that point, that the exultation of winning overruled all other priorities.

 

So basically, after being on the receiving end of dead machines and the various 'pro' players etc, you then decided to do exactly the same thing. It was actually when I learned a few of the tricks/bugs/scams that stopped me playing them. I was shown pie factory and then another which for some reason I have totally forgot. Maybe because I was so pissed off at the time. 

[Manana]

23 hours ago, Projectgilda said:

 

 

Do you really believe that most players were addicts? I don't agree with that. This site has it's fair share of recovering/recovered addicts but I don't think that's a fair split. I think most players were in it for fun win or lose. It's like saying everyone in the bookies has a gambling problem. Some people, most I would say, like a flutter and enjoy the thrill of gambling responsibly. I bet on most things sport related, it makes the said event more interesting, but I stake only what I'm happy to lose. I think I'm in the majority not the minority.

I agree with this. As someone who used to spend the whole day paying machines you would see people pop in for an hour and leave, they wouldn't be seen for a week if at all. Everywhere had the regulars, occasional players and addicts. The occasional players slowly disappeared and then the regulars. The fun had gone out of the machines. 

[Manana]

17 hours ago, Ze Frog said:

I kind of get that viewpoint to a degree, but really are the pro players really the ones to blame? I knew very little in methods, so am far and away from a pro player, but even the things I did know that gave me an edge, I still think it's completely wrong and bent, and thought as much even at the time as it was clear for every snippet of information gained, somebody out there was always knowing far more. The problem is, if there's an exploit, people will use it if they can, that's just human nature, but I would guess a lot of people felt uncomfortable with the fact even if it was making them big money. This becomes especially prevalent if you have been in the position of getting completely battered by machines before gaining the knowledge. Like in Degsy's videos, there are some points where you can tell he is actually remorseful and was so at the time, as everyone who didn't know was living the hell he did before gaining such knowledge.

The industry and it's regulators are the real problem, fruit machines could be fair and not completely bent and broken, and all at a time when coding was far more of a dark art. It's clear that the industry got lazy and complacent, no doubt due to greed at the corporate level. When you think how many machines there were everywhere, it's clear companies went bust and coding and design suffered because the bulk of the money from the machines was sent to the top to be siphoned off rather than allowing a team with enough members and skill to create these things after a point. Instead as per Projectgilda saying, time constraints and more and more unreasonable demands on shrinking and less interested team members lead to a complete death spiral for the fruit machine, and in turn left the door open to ever shoddier code and design that allowed things to get completely out of hand. By the £70 era it was pretty clear that all the love and creativity had long since died.

I agree with a lot of what you say. When I found out about the loopholes it stopped me playing them as I was damn sure that there were a lot more loopholes out there and it just wasn't worth it. It actually made a lot of things fall into place such as dead machines, certain people always winning etc

But to be one of the ones doing it and then saying it was all corrupt just makes me laugh. It's like me mugging an old woman and then procrastinating that anyone who would do that is a scumbag. 

As for the remorseful part, he said he did it for ten years . 

[Manana]

17 hours ago, Hamsun said:

Was that a metaphorical kicking or a literal one?  

In my worst times as a clueless player of AWPs I would punch and kick machines but I would never physically attack another person. If I saw someone empty a machine I would watch and ask them how they did it. Sometimes they would tell me to FO, other times they would let slip valuable info. 

 

 

Unfortunately it was an actual kicking. Actually not that unfortunate if I'm honest, I thought he deserved it then and I still do. He was part of a group of 3 or 4, always sitting and watching people or slowly playing a machine whilst really he is looking at other players so he can pounce. Maybe not a civilised thing to do but I didn't lose any sleep. 

[Manana]

At the end of the day the only way to really win gambling is not to play in the first place. I really enjoyed playing machines as it was fun and I enjoyed it. As evidenced by the fact I play the emulator and can happily spend hours playing. But it was also that which started me gambling in the first place. God knows how much I lost in that period (roulette was the killer for me) but it at least the price of a house (1995-2010).

The only thing that worked for me was having no money, literally. I took sandwiches to work, cut up my debit cards and never went out of the house with anything. If I needed petrol my girlfriend would come with me and use her card. It sounds ridiculous but it worked. Before I couldn't walk or drive past a betting shop without trying my luck (pissing a load of money up against a wall). I used to wake up with a feeling in my stomach, an eagerness to gamble but that went within a month or so. Within three months I barely thought about gambling and I have not gambled since and I genuinely have absolutely zero desire to gamble. I rarely think about my gambling days anymore but this thread has made me remember, all I really think now is what an absolute waste of time, money and emotions it was. 

 

If anyone was an addict but is still gambling "occasionally", just stop. It's really not worth the risk.

[Boulderdash]

1 hour ago, Manana said:

At the end of the day the only way to really win gambling is not to play in the first place. I really enjoyed playing machines as it was fun and I enjoyed it. As evidenced by the fact I play the emulator and can happily spend hours playing. But it was also that which started me gambling in the first place. God knows how much I lost in that period (roulette was the killer for me) but it at least the price of a house (1995-2010).

The only thing that worked for me was having no money, literally. I took sandwiches to work, cut up my debit cards and never went out of the house with anything. If I needed petrol my girlfriend would come with me and use her card. It sounds ridiculous but it worked. Before I couldn't walk or drive past a betting shop without trying my luck (pissing a load of money up against a wall). I used to wake up with a feeling in my stomach, an eagerness to gamble but that went within a month or so. Within three months I barely thought about gambling and I have not gambled since and I genuinely have absolutely zero desire to gamble. I rarely think about my gambling days anymore but this thread has made me remember, all I really think now is what an absolute waste of time, money and emotions it was. 

 

If anyone was an addict but is still gambling "occasionally", just stop. It's really not worth the risk.

Most people on here enjoyed compensated AWPs. What the have in pubs and clubs now are very dangerous gambling machines that will take to every penny you have in a very short space of time. 

Definitely not worth the risk if you have the 'it'll pay eventually' mindset. 

[slotsmagic]

10 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

Most people on here enjoyed compensated AWPs. What the have in pubs and clubs now are very dangerous gambling machines that will take to every penny you have in a very short space of time. 

Definitely not worth the risk if you have the 'it'll pay eventually' mindset. 

I enjoyed them to some extent when they behaved, didn't mind an acceptable loss. Makes me laugh though that my acceptable losses per machine still cost me a bloody fortune as I spent so long playing them

I still don't know why I didn't just quit when it was obvious so many machines in the £35/£70 days were shite and I had some absolutely horrific batterings in the context of 'amusement' with prizes.

As for pub machines these days, it doesn't help that random or not, many so seem to exhibit compensated behaviours, presumably as the manufacturers want other punters to see jackpots being won, and seeing several back-to-back might suck in a new punter.

Edited August 25, 2025 by slotsmagic

[Manana]

2 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

Most people on here enjoyed compensated AWPs. What the have in pubs and clubs now are very dangerous gambling machines that will take to every penny you have in a very short space of time. 

Definitely not worth the risk if you have the 'it'll pay eventually' mindset. 

That was the only mindset I had and I'm still bloody waiting. 

[Hamsun]

5 hours ago, Manana said:

He was part of a group of 3 or 4, always sitting and watching people or slowly playing a machine whilst really he is looking at other players so he can pounce

A shark basically. I hate sharking. You almost always found a few in busy arcades, often apparently friendly with the staff. Either the staff were stupid or corrupt or a bit of both. It's one of the reasons I stopped going to arcades, even when they contained emptiable machines [getting barred for winning was another reason...].

To my mind a'pro' is a player who has advanced skills and knowledge and targets specific machines, often travelling around the country to find them.

Sharks target other players, pros target certain machines.

There is a grey area in between, of course. To be honest, neither are particularly nice ways to make money.

Edited August 25, 2025 by Hamsun

[Cavey]

17 hours ago, Boulderdash said:

You just have to collect wins when offered really. On the games I mentioned, just let George play it and it'll run about 2% below RTP until it chucks in the cashpot to get it to target. 

You can get it ahead of RTP with a big gamble, but it'll then stop letting you on the trail and when it does you won't get very high up. 

If you're that much behind, just keep collecting decent wins and it'll soon get back to target probably without paying anything over £40.

Dull.

Very far from an expert (lulz at the very thought of it, I was crap), but even 'Crest clubbers varied quote significantly. With the really early MPU3 stuff, the roulette gamble was key, you could force out a sub £20-odd win (1984 money remember) just by gambling low orange wins or whatever, and there was always the off fiver or tenner off the nudges. (Super Series were usually rubbish). The JP would be thrown at you (once every 2-3 months or even less, of very heavy play - unlike today's bereft, unloved machines).

Early 90s MPU4s were glorified AWPs (Jackpot Jump et al) but even then, machines like Sold Silver - which played like a total woffer most of the time - had an interesting uncapped double/nothing gamble, as did stuff like Crackpot's gamble ladder, and Stake Up could also be forced into, say, £12-£16 nudge wins (again, 1980s money).

Club Hyper Viper/Adders did like to give flash holds for both the cashpot (had to be full, preferably with full reserve too) and the full £200 JP (all in open play of course - the frequently-awarded board was an "AWP plus" with £20 cash JP, usually £10 or £16 off nudgepot).

Club Psycho Cash was an all-out forcer, and Club Blackjack (both former and later variants) had forceable gambles - like many Crystals. Club 999 also liked a force IIRC.

I reckon the worst clubbers were Maygays. Absolute crap IMO.

[Projectgilda]

In my hey day of playing machines I used to loved chucking £20 in a pot with 4 other guys and doing a pub crawl playing machines, irrelevant of what they were (within reason) and getting happily pissed playing bandits and pool. They were great times. If we won it'd pay for more beer if we lost it didn't matter. I did love seeing my machines in pubs and we'd play them more but it wasn't hunting locations. Just great times in my youth with good friends. That's what I take out of the 90's and my relationship with machines. 

[Boulderdash]

51 minutes ago, Cavey said:

Very far from an expert (lulz at the very thought of it, I was crap), but even 'Crest clubbers varied quote significantly. With the really early MPU3 stuff, the roulette gamble was key, you could force out a sub £20-odd win (1984 money remember) just by gambling low orange wins or whatever, and there was always the off fiver or tenner off the nudges. (Super Series were usually rubbish). The JP would be thrown at you (once every 2-3 months or even less, of very heavy play - unlike today's bereft, unloved machines).

Early 90s MPU4s were glorified AWPs (Jackpot Jump et al) but even then, machines like Sold Silver - which played like a total woffer most of the time - had an interesting uncapped double/nothing gamble, as did stuff like Crackpot's gamble ladder, and Stake Up could also be forced into, say, £12-£16 nudge wins (again, 1980s money).

Club Hyper Viper/Adders did like to give flash holds for both the cashpot (had to be full, preferably with full reserve too) and the full £200 JP (all in open play of course - the frequently-awarded board was an "AWP plus" with £20 cash JP, usually £10 or £16 off nudgepot).

Club Psycho Cash was an all-out forcer, and Club Blackjack (both former and later variants) had forceable gambles - like many Crystals. Club 999 also liked a force IIRC.

I reckon the worst clubbers were Maygays. Absolute crap IMO.

Indeed. 

But long story short, all those machines were very dull and would rarely pay more than £20 from the current pot. 

But I suppose that was 4-5 times the AWP jackpot of the era...

Edited August 25, 2025 by Boulderdash

[Cavey]

1 hour ago, Boulderdash said:

But I suppose that was 4-5 times the AWP jackpot of the era...

Well, yeah. This. 

Even £20 in cash > £6 in tokens, especially as we now know the machines' %RTP was nerfed if you tried to play 'em (which let's face it you were always going to do in 95% of cases - the odd pub would exchange a limited amount of tokens for 50p's and 20p's "for the fag machine" but not many).

[Cavey]

1 hour ago, Projectgilda said:

In my hey day of playing machines I used to loved chucking £20 in a pot with 4 other guys and doing a pub crawl playing machines, irrelevant of what they were (within reason) and getting happily pissed playing bandits and pool. They were great times. If we won it'd pay for more beer if we lost it didn't matter. I did love seeing my machines in pubs and we'd play them more but it wasn't hunting locations. Just great times in my youth with good friends. That's what I take out of the 90's and my relationship with machines. 

For me, fruit machines got in the way of friends & great nights out, they didn't help. Most of my mates openly called me out (quite rightly) for ignoring them and being antisocial, whilst they all enjoyed a night out of beers/japes/pulling the lasses or whatever else. My choice & my bad, no one was forcing me to shovel pound after pound into a box of flashing lights - whilst in my prime, with no responsibilities, and during the early 90s, a great time to be alive.

In retrospect, "great times" involved awesome carefree camaraderie with mates, various gorgeous girls, gigs, raves, great music, carefree times. Not being *that guy* changing up yet another tenner behind the bar and going home skint. What a dick.

 

[Cavey]

7 hours ago, Manana said:

The only thing that worked for me was having no money, literally. I took sandwiches to work, cut up my debit cards and never went out of the house with anything. If I needed petrol my girlfriend would come with me and use her card. It sounds ridiculous but it worked.

Yeah, that's what I did, essentially. Got a (sole) joint account with the missus, she knew exactly what was going in and out each month, with nowhere to hide.

It worked.

[slotsmagic]

8 minutes ago, Cavey said:

For me, fruit machines got in the way of friends & great nights out, they didn't help. Most of my mates openly called me out (quite rightly) for ignoring them and being antisocial, whilst they all enjoyed a night out of beers/japes/pulling the lasses or whatever else. My choice & my bad, no one was forcing me to shovel pound after pound into a box of flashing lights - whilst in my prime, with no responsibilities, and during the early 90s, a great time to be alive.

In retrospect, "great times" involved awesome carefree camaraderie with mates, various gorgeous girls, gigs, raves, great music, carefree times. Not being *that guy* changing up yet another tenner behind the bar and going home skint. What a dick.

 

Yup. Think I mentioned similar before, either in this thread or maybe my quitting thread. I thought I loved going out gambling with the old man. Turned out I just loved going out with the old man and having a laugh. If anything gambling was a small boost if we won, or fucked up an evening if I ended up chasing something. Several times I walked home alone after a bad session, a mix of embarrassment, self hatred, and pretty much wanting to punish myself. 

Same with friends and family. Go for a night out, I'd ignore them all for the machine. Unless I had a quick win, then they thought I was some sort of genius and I'd be buying the rounds. But more often than not, I was ignoring them. Not through choice - they were an obstacle in the way of my fix.

Not saying it's the same for everyone, but the adverts e.t.c. that show gambling as being a great way of socialising do piss me off. Plenty of better ways to socialise than playing effing bingo (for example). It's like preying on the lonely and desperate.

What some will think is socialising, others won't realise is more of a shared ordeal. A bunch of desperate people in a chatroom willing the predetermined event they are partaking in to change in their favour.

Not saying that's everyone!

Edited August 25, 2025 by slotsmagic

[Projectgilda]

@ChopaholicJust watched your latest video. Thanks for that. At JPM we'd always have at least one competitor machine 'in stock'for general testing. To cut a long strut short we played them with multiple coins. As if, if you like, you'd bought a pint and had some loose change. We have everyone play them including receptionists to get a good idea of how they played in all scenarios from expert player to a beginner. A tester was marking down every outcome from all games played. But it was always multiple coins. 

So stat play wouldn't have been a thing for us. However, it doesn't surprise me that Red did such stuff. Knowing them very well (I used to live with the founder) nothing would surprise me. They were very savvy. I know for a fact they did pots when they were illegal. Fact. Never caught, never challenged and they did well in the £25/£35 era because of this.

[Chopaholic]

2 hours ago, Projectgilda said:

However, it doesn't surprise me that Red did such stuff. Knowing them very well (I used to live with the founder) nothing would surprise me. They were very savvy. I know for a fact they did pots when they were illegal. Fact. Never caught, never challenged and they did well in the £25/£35 era because of this.

Not quite sure what you mean by the bit I've highlighted in bold there Andrew, any chance you could explain a bit more please?

If you've watched some of my videos by this point, hopefully you'll have gathered that I really do have a lot of fondness for AWPs, especially the classics from the £4.80/£6 era. However at the same time, like a lot of other folks here, I also want to understand what went on more, especially as the jackpots got bigger and the industry seemed to lose its way IMO. I mean, it's completely impossible to defend on any level the state Barcrest got themselves into in the £70 era, or BFM who chucked out so many DONDs that had stuff on them.

I never had too much of a problem with Reds myself, they were generally safe on a force, although they did a few dodgy things like fake backing, or deliberately messing with folks like on Sub Zero, which actively fought against the 'standard' Red play technique, and required a very specific play style to get the value out of it.

Cheers  

[Projectgilda]

Red games had board values set to them (as with all compensated machine). But if you lost, that amount was put in a pot. Chances were that you'd get offered the same, but usually more, next feature. And it continued. If you played to lose you'd be given generous boards. It kept players on the machines as they knew their lost money would be offered time and time again. Pots were illegal by that time. The state of a game couldn't be dictated by previous games other than general compensation. Saving players activities was illegal.

[woodsy]

5 minutes ago, Projectgilda said:

Red games had board values set to them (as with all compensated machine). But if you lost, that amount was put in a pot. Chances were that you'd get offered the same, but usually more, next feature. And it continued. If you played to lose you'd be given generous boards. It kept players on the machines as they knew their lost money would be offered time and time again. Pots were illegal by that time. The state of a game couldn't be dictated by previous games other than general compensation. Saving players activities was illegal.

reds were best AT 35/70 for the extra win to 105 here and there, spinning/numbering is a inbuilt thing for ace/jpm/impulse and i've seen crystal and that other barcrest copying one number to display they are in all cash mode showing 4/9 exclusively on games like hyper viper and andy capp, both with token jp's which were totally blocked if spinning 4/9, i assume thats down to token tube levels? i made a decent living off machines but they ruined a great thing by increasing the jackpots every few years, had these been left at 10/15/25 max they'd still be around today.

instead we've been forced to emulate, seek retro arcades and play bent £5 games that were once joyful games.

i won't even begin to go on about the virtuals as i loathe them infinitely 

really appreciate your info and posts. i just have to declare that for a majority of machines, for the longer period of time some of us owned you. casuals and tourists filled your cash boxes. we emptied your tubes, essentially only taking your float from a machine which proabably pales in comparison to your business model and taxation of venues. 

i think the licencing changes late 90's making it 5k or so for a kebab shop to have a machine, small independent arcades forced to close due to the licencing changes and costs. 

it's not your fault please don't mistake my passive aggression as meant for you, it's the life i lived, many lived, and many left behind in all senses that i am miffed with.

they should allow the arcades to be popular again, remake and release the golden era games, newly coded and the like, it's eay enough to site 16 virtuals in a wetherspoons, i don't see why they can't offer £10 nudge up deluxes and the like too.

whats happened is bacta and the government have shook hands and favoured the handshake crew with national arcades now international infact in the form of admirals/nobles etc.. allegedly..

i could go on for days on how disgraceful what was once AMUSEMENT WITH PRIZES has now become note counting screens and terminals, i miss knowing how many £1 i had in my hand from weight alone.

the intended syncing and linking of your bank accounts via a username and password is the height of disgust for me. 

best wishes

[Mort]

1 hour ago, Projectgilda said:

Red games had board values set to them (as with all compensated machine). But if you lost, that amount was put in a pot. Chances were that you'd get offered the same, but usually more, next feature. And it continued. If you played to lose you'd be given generous boards. It kept players on the machines as they knew their lost money would be offered time and time again. Pots were illegal by that time. The state of a game couldn't be dictated by previous games other than general compensation. Saving players activities was illegal.

In my completely naïve playing days, that's exactly how I expected feature boards to work.

What's your opinions on stats play Andrew ? I said earlier today that I can't understand how another manufacturer would not be inputting different coins anyway. I understand if you can't comment, I just don't get this £1 only anti-stat's mode the more I think and mull it over.

Edited August 25, 2025 by Mort

[Mort]

9 hours ago, Cavey said:

I reckon the worst clubbers were Maygays. Absolute crap IMO.

I didn't want to agree with this, but over the years of playing them, I, unfortunately, have to agree.

I always loved a Maygay AWP, well... before Epoch of course!

The clubbers had such boring gameplay.

Nice to see you around Cavey btw.

[woodsy]

also, re spinning i think it came around as a non jp ready machine cannot offer a no lose gmable, no extra life, no skill stop on rollwer coaster for example, a 1 or 12 could only spin to a non gamble event on the board, that is the error that led to the spin, taking away the no lose element and allowing it when jp ready.

play it spinning and not, you'll see the meaning. it cannot offer skill roll up etc unless spinning, part of me also believes let em spin is barred too unless spinning. love to see that video.

i'll have a go muself