Causing a bit of a stir.

[Projectgilda]

Worth noting that you guys always want a Jackpot. Not all players played way. I would say a majority didn't. We metered every possible outcome in our games and studied them extensively during the test period to see how the game balances and was played. The true skill features were not always the most popular. Very controlled features like money belt in it's many variations, win-spins and reel blasts were often taken more, as casual players were intimidated by the true skill features.

 

Rarely did my games not balance in the 'numbering' (mode 3) zone of the compensation. That's why my/our games were so popular as they gave a great game and frequency for the inputted stake. 

[Ze Frog]

47 minutes ago, Projectgilda said:

Worth noting that you guys always want a Jackpot. Not all players played way. I would say a majority didn't. We metered every possible outcome in our games and studied them extensively during the test period to see how the game balances and was played. The true skill features were not always the most popular. Very controlled features like money belt in it's many variations, win-spins and reel blasts were often taken more, as casual players were intimidated by the true skill features.

 

Rarely did my games not balance in the 'numbering' (mode 3) zone of the compensation. That's why my/our games were so popular as they gave a great game and frequency for the inputted stake. 

I have noticed in the emulator that only playing for the features I would play for IRL really knocks a machine, I try to play in multiple play styles now to try and maintain a more true to life experience. There was a conversation regarding this in a thread a while back, and a few of us agreed that JPM's were pretty good at value distribution and largely a fairer proposition for the non professional players, as long as a professional hadn't skillfully extracted every last bit of value at least thanks to not penalising for taking a lower feature. Some clever design right there.

[Ze Frog]

On 06/08/2025 at 12:18, Boulderdash said:

As with all these things, I'm sure it was both, and more besides. 

Jackpots too high

Too many players

Too many empties/manipulations

The internet 

Beer getting too expensive so even if people did go to the pub they didn't throw their change in the bandit

Definitely a combination of all those, especially price of beer now. I haven't been to a pub in a long while now, but can't imagine they get nearly as much custom as they used to do, a night on the town these days must be a once a month at best type deal for anyone not middle class at least. Certainly different times, back in the 90's most pubs I went to were working class folk, and going to the pub was pretty much most evenings after work if only for a couple of pints, these days...no chance, nevermind £1 or £2 a spin on a fruit machine as well.

[Chopaholic]

58 minutes ago, Projectgilda said:

Worth noting that you guys always want a Jackpot. Not all players played way. I would say a majority didn't. We metered every possible outcome in our games and studied them extensively during the test period to see how the game balances and was played. The true skill features were not always the most popular. Very controlled features like money belt in it's many variations, win-spins and reel blasts were often taken more, as casual players were intimidated by the true skill features.

 

Rarely did my games not balance in the 'numbering' (mode 3) zone of the compensation. That's why my/our games were so popular as they gave a great game and frequency for the inputted stake. 

Even back in my numpty addict days I worked out that Test Your Strength was a guaranteed jackpot on Roller Coaster  Cancel slow down worked and it liked to do a repeat or two as well. (I remember Roller Coaster coming out on the £6 jackpot and immediately loved it, I can't really recall there being anything else like it at the time.)

Similarly with Indy, and again, even though I didn't know about numbering, you could tell it'd be in Pathway To Riches/Leap of Faith mode sometimes and not others. (Snake Pit it could award and just do £3 or less, and it had lots of ways to get out of an Ark Of The Covenant once you got round to that section of the board.)

Back when the jackpot was so small relative to stake there was a limit to how smashed a JPM could be left, although I still remember some harsh sessions on them.

Bonanza was another great one, was that one of yours too? It was a superb machine on £6 but properly went off the boil on £8 and was pretty horrible on £10.

[Hamsun]

1 hour ago, Projectgilda said:

Worth noting that you guys always want a Jackpot.

Some might but I think most sensible players, even if they could hit all the skills, would tend to take the best feature or win available rather than gamble on 'bad' numbers like 4/5/6/7/8 to get to something better. Obviously though, whenever JP feature arose you wouldl take it rather than gamble past it.

Playing JPMs can require a lot of patience...

[Cavey]

I also think there's an important distinction to be drawn between how people play these games now, in the emulator, as opposed to how they played them for real, with actual, real money etc., back in the late 90s or whenever (when a tenner was worth a lot more than it is now as well).

It's easy to be blasé and to rabidly force these games to death when you're not actually doing your bollocks in somewhere. Back in the wild, if you were offered £4 on a bad number, you took it (as a casual player at least).

[vectra666]

46 minutes ago, Cavey said:

I also think there's an important distinction to be drawn between how people play these games now, in the emulator, as opposed to how they played them for real, with actual, real money etc., back in the late 90s or whenever (when a tenner was worth a lot more than it is now as well).

It's easy to be blasé and to rabidly force these games to death when you're not actually doing your bollocks in somewhere. Back in the wild, if you were offered £4 on a bad number, you took it (as a casual player at least).

Very true you’ll never play the emulated machines as if you were playing them for real, take a dond on a layout you just force the shit out of it but in reality if you’re a casual like me you’d play on 25/50p and take the winnings say a tenner up and off to the bar. Back in old days on the £4-6 token jackpots if a shitty hi lo number on a feature trail you take the feature 

[Chopaholic]

Remember that autoplay is a thing though. Whenever I get serious about a machine (and certainly if I'm intending to feature it in a video) I'll set up an 'casual player' autoplay profile that's designed to collect wins, exchange into the feature and collect stacks, all that sort of stuff.

Also since we learned about 'stats play' - (thanks fruit machine industry I bet no real human beings ever got fucked by that one!) - it's important to put multiple coin inputs into the mix as well.

As such whilst our personal play might not be 'realistic' from one session to the next, it's easy to get fat stacks of cash through any machine by using autoplay.

(Or do other things with autoplay too of course, such as seeing how far a machine will get behind percentage by having a profile that hardly ever collects anything, or whatever it is you want to do.)

[slotsmagic]

13 hours ago, Projectgilda said:

Worth noting that you guys always want a Jackpot. Not all players played way. I would say a majority didn't. We metered every possible outcome in our games and studied them extensively during the test period to see how the game balances and was played. The true skill features were not always the most popular. Very controlled features like money belt in it's many variations, win-spins and reel blasts were often taken more, as casual players were intimidated by the true skill features.

 

Rarely did my games not balance in the 'numbering' (mode 3) zone of the compensation. That's why my/our games were so popular as they gave a great game and frequency for the inputted stake. 

Funny thing is, before my addiction fully took hold (so I was no doubt addicted, but not as deep as I ended up) I used to play in a much more conservative style. My playing style was more like 'right, I've got a stake of £50, let's see how big a bank we can get'.

Reading machines better, having a good idea of when it would kill me, and collecting more conservative stuff, using knowledge of features and whatnot to maximise value I'd get back.

I feel like as I got deeper and deeper into addiction, small wins, conservative play... it wasn't doing anything for me.

I needed the jackpot, and I needed that 'fix' as quickly as possible.

Edited August 8 by slotsmagic

[Boulderdash]

On 01/08/2025 at 18:42, Projectgilda said:

It could repeat through 4 credit breaks, so you didn't get the max from it. Still good mind

I just had Rollercoaster repeat five times for £59.60...

I've never seen that in the emulator or in the wild!

It's not like it was miles behind either - now it's up to 94% overall, compared to 92% it says it's set at in the config. 

Of course it stopped numbering after that and played like a dog!

Edited August 8 by Boulderdash

[Cavey]

38 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

Remember that autoplay is a thing though. Whenever I get serious about a machine (and certainly if I'm intending to feature it in a video) I'll set up an 'casual player' autoplay profile that's designed to collect wins, exchange into the feature and collect stacks, all that sort of stuff.

Also since we learned about 'stats play' - (thanks fruit machine industry I bet no real human beings ever got fucked by that one!) - it's important to put multiple coin inputs into the mix as well.

Tbh I've no idea how to use Autoplay in the emulator (less still how to hone a "mixed profile" with multiple different coin denominations etc.)

As an aside, this "stats play" thing is outrageous? Are we really saying that AWPs used to clam up simply by dint of the single coin denominations (pound coins) being fed into them? I mean, who asked for mixed coins when changing down a tenner to play on the machines, either in an arcade or even the pub/club? (Also, I can only imagine what the answer would've been in many cases as well!)

We already know about tokens giving a shit game and markedly reduced RTP - and now this. Fuck my old boots etc.

[Boulderdash]

4 minutes ago, Cavey said:

Tbh I've no idea how to use Autoplay in the emulator (less still how to hone a "mixed profile" with multiple different coin denominations etc.)

As an aside, this "stats play" thing is outrageous? Are we really saying that AWPs used to clam up simply by dint of the single coin denominations (pound coins) being fed into them? 

Yes, that's exactly that @edwardbconfirmed. 

[Chopaholic]

9 minutes ago, Cavey said:

Tbh I've no idea how to use Autoplay in the emulator (less still how to hone a "mixed profile" with multiple different coin denominations etc.)

It's an hour of your life you're not getting back  

 

 

[Boulderdash]

13 hours ago, Hamsun said:

Some might but I think most sensible players, even if they could hit all the skills, would tend to take the best feature or win available rather than gamble on 'bad' numbers like 4/5/6/7/8 to get to something better. Obviously though, whenever JP feature arose you wouldl take it rather than gamble past it.

Playing JPMs can require a lot of patience...

JPMs were quite different to Barcrest in this respect. They were designed so many features could pay jackpot, so it paid to collect them, like Test Your Strength.

Barcrest, particularly in the £15 era, were basic forces like current Betcoms, which will pay £100 and maybe go on for the £150.

Even at £15 jackpot, you'd of course hope/expect the Barcrest would pay £60 because it had built up enough to repeat, or go invincible next board and repeat twice. 

Totally different strategies.

[Boulderdash]

2 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

It's an hour of your life you're not getting back  

 

 

Autoplay. Don't talk to me about autoplay. Brain the size of a planet and all I do is put virtual coins in virtual slots and press virtual buttons...

Edited August 8 by Boulderdash

[Cavey]

I see what you did there Marv

[Chopaholic]

11 minutes ago, Cavey said:

As an aside, this "stats play" thing is outrageous? Are we really saying that AWPs used to clam up simply by dint of the single coin denominations (pound coins) being fed into them? I mean, who asked for mixed coins when changing down a tenner to play on the machines, either in an arcade or even the pub/club? (Also, I can only imagine what the answer would've been in many cases as well!)

We already know about tokens giving a shit game and markedly reduced RTP - and now this. Fuck my old boots etc.

It is basically scam behaviour that was allegedly done to confound other manufacturers trying to steal trade secrets, but the parameters of its operation as explained to us (by someone who knew all about it!) could very easily ensnare people simply playing the machine in a certain way.

The disclaimer was 'it didn't affect RTP just stopped the machine streaking', but when RTPs were so low (mid 70s) and without a streak pot being activated, that awful RTP would simply grind you down with no possibility of getting the 'off ramp' of a streak.

Still, I'm sure BACTA were all over it. LOL  

[Cavey]

30 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

JPMs were quite different to Barcrest in this respect. They were designed so many features could pay jackpot, so it paid to collect them, like Test Your Strength.

Barcrest, particularly in the £15 era, were basic forces like current Betcoms, which will pay £100 and maybe go on for the £150.

Even at £15 jackpot, you'd of course hope/expect the Barcrest would pay £60 because it had built up enough to repeat, or go invincible next board and repeat twice. 

Totally different strategies.

Early Impulses of the £15JP era seemed to respond to a force as well, specifically a £60 from a JP and three straight repeats IIRC.

Of course, certain clubbers (mainly earlier BFMs and Crystals) were also best played aggressively, even including the odd MPU5 Barcrest like Club PCCB (what a classic clubber that was, right up there with the best of 'em).

No idea if it was anything like optimal play (probably not knowing me lol), but I always used to refuse small stuff off JPM clubbers like Big Break and Casino Crazy - the compensator always seemed to allow a good Winspins hit which would get you back to break even or reasonably close. 

[Chopaholic]

Less so with Club Psycho Cash Beast if it'd had the emptier done on it, of course.

[Cavey]

5 minutes ago, Chopaholic said:

Less so with Club Psycho Cash Beast if it'd had the emptier done on it, of course.

The only "emptier" I know is a straight force until an IM board - and then play for 12 win spins on the next available board for the (undisplayed) Cashpot. After that, take the "normal" £50 pot as well, then bugger off with bulging pockets.

Is there another one besides this (which is a strategy rather than emptier in the correct sense).

Of course, along the way the machine is getting happier and happier and desperate to palm off £50 boards on you, so it's obviously not "dead". (If it is, you'd know it was just "done" and would walk).

I didn't know this in my playing days of course, but I did force it anyway with some success, and even happened across the Cashpot though didn't know it at the time. I was gobsmacked to win £180 off 12 win spins lol.

[Chopaholic]

3 minutes ago, Cavey said:

The only "emptier" I know is a straight force until an IM board - and then play for 12 win spins on the next available board for the (undisplayed) Cashpot. After that, take the "normal" £50 pot as well, then bugger off with bulging pockets.

Is there another one besides this (which is a strategy rather than emptier in the correct sense).

Of course, along the way the machine is getting happier and happier and desperate to palm off £50 boards on you, so it's obviously not "dead". (If it is, you'd know it was just "done" and would walk).

I didn't know this in my playing days of course, but I did force it anyway with some success, and even happened across the Cashpot though didn't know it at the time. I was gobsmacked to win £180 off 12 win spins lol.

On some chips it didn't see Step To Nearest Win properly (no, really....) and it was possible to set it up for wins through the block. (Although it wasn't always easy to do.)

Once you'd taken as many of those wins as you wanted to, you could then wind down the current pot and leave that in a really foul mood, as well as the 'future' big win/jackpot compensator that was of course completely smashed.

If you came across one that'd been done, you were stumbling into a real world of pain. (I was intending to do a follow-on video for this but never got around to it, but basically it plays as awful a game as you'd expect.)

Direct timestamped link to the machine blundering into a STNW jackpot set up:

 

[Boulderdash]

7 minutes ago, Cavey said:

The only "emptier" I know is a straight force until an IM board - and then play for 12 win spins on the next available board for the (undisplayed) Cashpot. After that, take the "normal" £50 pot as well, then bugger off with bulging pockets.

Is there another one besides this (which is a strategy rather than emptier in the correct sense).

Of course, along the way the machine is getting happier and happier and desperate to palm off £50 boards on you, so it's obviously not "dead". (If it is, you'd know it was just "done" and would walk).

I didn't know this in my playing days of course, but I did force it anyway with some success, and even happened across the Cashpot though didn't know it at the time. I was gobsmacked to win £180 off 12 win spins lol.

I only became aware of the CPCB invincible mode when I found the CMA guide. Previously I'd done my absolute buttons in one at the golf club, presumably after someone had done it. 

It got taken away shortly after and I never managed to do one myself

[Cavey]

Ah bloody hell. Step to nearest win eh?

I can only imagine the one I used to play had been chipped; sometimes in a rather bad mood but it'd be offering at least blue sevens (£40) boards within a *reasonable* time, at worst.

It had large play volumes as well, being in a Royal Legion with lots of punters. The only machine was a Crystal, this loved to (eventually) win big on the x12 gamble (then another consecutive x12 if a cherry type win) that none of the old geezers in there ever pressed. 

[Hamsun]

1 hour ago, Boulderdash said:

JPMs were quite different to Barcrest in this respect.

Oddly enough, late 80s/early 90s Barcrests were similar to JPMs in that taking skill features rather than forcing was the way to go. Forcing later Barcrests was generally the easiest way to take the value but it didn't give the same sense of satisfaion. 'Forcing' and 'playing' are very different strategies and point up major inconsistencies in the way AWPs were designed and marketed to the public.

[Projectgilda]

2 hours ago, Boulderdash said:

I just had Rollercoaster repeat five times for £59.60...

I've never seen that in the emulator or in the wild!

It's not like it was miles behind either - now it's up to 94% overall, compared to 92% it says it's set at in the config. 

Of course it stopped numbering after that and played like a dog!

5 times! I stand corrected. I'm amazed after all these years I remember what I do (which isn't much).

On 05/08/2025 at 16:46, Cavey said: