Arcade Simulator - Layout Permissions

[andrew96]

Thanks John

the plan is.....

 

he is going to dump the rom, its a version he knows like the back of his hand!!

 

I am then going to remove the character check so it runs...

(is there a link on here to cash attack mpu4 mfme?)

I will then either patch in the lamp table into the rom, OR make a lamp table CHR chip with just the one mfme table in (not sure at this stage which option...

 

then he can test it!!

 

If I cant remove the chr check, then I can just divert the #800 references toa new lamp table within the rom... I just need his copy of the rom and the mfme version to put the plan into action!!

[andrew96]

Perhaps I should continue this over on my mpu4 character hacking thread perhaps...

[johnparker007]

15 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

Thanks John

the plan is.....

 

he is going to dump the rom, its a version he knows like the back of his hand!!

 

I am then going to remove the character check so it runs...

(is there a link on here to cash attack mpu4 mfme?)

I will then either patch in the lamp table into the rom, OR make a lamp table CHR chip with just the one mfme table in (not sure at this stage which option...

 

then he can test it!!

 

If I cant remove the chr check, then I can just divert the #800 references toa new lamp table within the rom... I just need his copy of the rom and the mfme version to put the plan into action!!

Cash attack MFME Layouts:
Cash Attack (Barcrest).zip
 

14 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

Perhaps I should continue this over on my mpu4 character hacking thread perhaps...

Ok, sounds fun, happy hacking!   

Just to clarify, could you please let me know your answer to the question:

 "yes or no, do you agree that testing my patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?"

I am buying an MPU4 machine just to prove this patched Chr-free Cloud 999 ROM works and has correct payout percentage, so your answer would be much appreciated, in case I am missing the point  

Edited May 17, 2022 by johnparker007

[serene02]

Your patch might be very different to Andrew96 ones so doesn't prove yours won't be fine JP. 

Anyway, will ring around tomorrow see if I can't sort an MPU machine out for some testing

 

J

[johnparker007]

8 minutes ago, serene02 said:

Your patch might be very different to Andrew96 ones so doesn't prove yours won't be fine JP. 

Anyway, will ring around tomorrow see if I can't sort an MPU machine out for some testing

 

J

Thanks very much mate, you're a star  

And yes absolutely; other people attempting to hack ROMs themselves and having problems is unrelated to whether my chr-free patched ROMs work correctly.

[andrew96]

1 hour ago, serene02 said:

Your patch might be very different to Andrew96 ones so doesn't prove yours won't be fine JP. 

Anyway, will ring around tomorrow see if I can't sort an MPU machine out for some testing

 

J

removing the character check has been known for years, its just a table it runs through and if it gets the correct figure it goes onto the next until complete, it if gets a wrong answer from the chr chip it drops out with a characteriser error, once this check has been removed then the checksum check has to be disabled, also that's been known for years..... these are not the problem, it is the lamp tables within the character that cannot be reproduced in a rom hack at the moment. its not the case of doing it different ways, it is just one lamp table is used in the hack when the real character chip has 3 tables in it

[andrew96]

1 hour ago, johnparker007 said:

Cash attack MFME Layouts:
Cash Attack (Barcrest).zip 27.24 MB · 0 downloads
 

Ok, sounds fun, happy hacking!   

Just to clarify, could you please let me know your answer to the question:

 "yes or no, do you agree that testing my patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?"

I am buying an MPU4 machine just to prove this patched Chr-free Cloud 999 ROM works and has correct payout percentage, so your answer would be much appreciated, in case I am missing the point  

thankyou for the ayout

 

all I can tell you is what I know so far which I have done. No meticulous writing down of figures was done, he knew it was wrong by the way it played, again he knows how they play like the back of his hand. 

 

all I know is what I have said with screenshots. Real machines are different to emulation for sure when it comes to the chr chip issue that I have proved by my reading out a real chip, If mfme was perfect then why does a real chips tables NOT appear in mfme anywhere? again its a emulator not real hardware

[serene02]

Might be worth asking your friend about his Cloud 999.  He may or may not be aware that it is very likely his machine could have been targeted as it's possible to reset the ram on these in certain situations and empty the machine quite easily. That might explain strange money in and out figures.  

J

[johnparker007]

@andrew96 You seemed completely convinced earlier in the thread that the payout percentage would be wrong when using my Chr-free patched ROMs, for example:

andrew96: "when the MFME values are fed to a real machine that's where it can send it paying the wrong percentage, (usually its very tight!)"

andrew96: "the patched rom will overpay in a real machine as it won't have the 3 correct lamp tables in"

andrew96: "the 1 table mfme uses WILL work in a real machine but causes percentage problems in a real machine"

andrew96: "there is a percentage issue on a real machine when using patched roms"

andrew96: "yes it overpays and takes no notice of the percentage key when using a PATCHED ROM"
 

So I'm a bit confused, as now you're saying "No meticulous writing down of figures was done".

Do you want to revise this opinion about the percentage problems that will be present using my chr-free patched ROMs?  

As I'm now buying an test MPU4 machine with @serene02's help, purely to run £2,000 through my Chr-free patched Cloud 999 ROM to measure the real payout percentage on real hardware!  This is entirely based on what you keep posting... 

So please could you let me know, are you still saying that the percentage payout over a statistically significant number of plays will be wrong with my Chr-free patched ROMs? 

Or have I misinterpreted what you are saying, as otherwise, what's the point in me buying the machine to prove the payout percentage is correct?  

It's cool to change your position on this man, and it'll save me having a fruit machine stuck in my kitchen lol , but otherwise, I'm happy to buy the machine and perform the proper tests, so we can 100% prove it one way or the other   

Edited May 17, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

10 hours ago, serene02 said:

Might be worth asking your friend about his Cloud 999.  He may or may not be aware that it is very likely his machine could have been targeted as it's possible to reset the ram on these in certain situations and empty the machine quite easily. That might explain strange money in and out figures.  

J

yeah he knows all this, he has been in 'the game' a long time. he is very much aware what versions of games and empty tricks etc

[andrew96]

10 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

@andrew96 You seemed completely convinced earlier in the thread that the payout percentage would be wrong when using my Chr-free patched ROMs, for example:

andrew96: "when the MFME values are fed to a real machine that's where it can send it paying the wrong percentage, (usually its very tight!)"

andrew96: "the patched rom will overpay in a real machine as it won't have the 3 correct lamp tables in"

andrew96: "the 1 table mfme uses WILL work in a real machine but causes percentage problems in a real machine"

andrew96: "there is a percentage issue on a real machine when using patched roms"

andrew96: "yes it overpays and takes no notice of the percentage key when using a PATCHED ROM"
 

So I'm a bit confused, as now you're saying "No meticulous writing down of figures was done".

Do you want to revise this opinion about the percentage problems that will be present using my chr-free patched ROMs?  

As I'm now buying an test MPU4 machine with @serene02's help, purely to run £2,000 through my Chr-free patched Cloud 999 ROM to measure the real payout percentage on real hardware!  This is entirely based on what you keep posting... 

So please could you let me know, are you still saying that the percentage payout over a statistically significant number of plays will be wrong with my Chr-free patched ROMs? 

Or have I misinterpreted what you are saying, as otherwise, what's the point in me buying the machine to prove the payout percentage is correct?  

It's cool to change your position on this man, and it'll save me having a fruit machine stuck in my kitchen lol , but otherwise, I'm happy to buy the machine and perform the proper tests, so we can 100% prove it one way or the other   

we are just going round in circles, I can only tell you what I have been told and given all the info I know! the fact is the real machine has 3 lamp tables and one character look up table in, the hacked version of the rom bypasses the character check (which is fine and not the problem), BUT only has 1 lamp table in..... so are they the same... nope...

[andrew96]

why does barcrest use 3 lamp tables? all 7 figures are firstly read out in sequence for lots of passes, then some odd reading of just the last 2 figures over and over in all 3 tables......why the bizarre read patterns?.... so it stands to reason it is not just for lamps, barcrest must be doing something else with the codes. I nether have the 6809 code experience or the inclination to decode and go through the rom code to see exactly what it does, but I really do think something more must be going on as why go to the bother of having to get custom PAL chips made to contain the tables it needs when you could do it all with a much cheaper 'off the shelf' PAL chip with just 1 table inside...

Edited May 18, 2022 by andrew96

[serene02]

I think that’s what JP is getting at Andrew, he does understand the 6809 code.  You can’t possibly say his patched roms won’t work in a real machine.

J

[johnparker007]

@andrew96 I agree we are going round in circles, as you aren't answering the question I've asked like 8 times now, you just keep wandering off into other stuff.  Let's try again:

The answer to the question is YES or NO

"yes or no, do you agree that testing my patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?"

[andrew96]

lol give us a chance!! I am working on the answer!!

so far.... its taken a bit longer than I thought it would but I have hacked the character checksum and the characteiser check out of the rom.... so now when I get his version of the rom I can hack that knowing it CAN be done!

 

so the plan now is to hack his  for 2 copies...

one just with the chr and checksum hack, this will then still use the 3 lamp tables in the origional chr chip.....

then another copy with a SINGLE lamp table in it, so the only difference between the roms WILL BE THE LAMP TABLES...

this should then be able to prove it once and forall

[andrew96]

2 hours ago, serene02 said:

I think that’s what JP is getting at Andrew, he does understand the 6809 code.  You can’t possibly say his patched roms won’t work in a real machine.

J

well I know enough 6809 code to get round checksums and character checking and the little tricks Barcrest do to fool ya!

[andrew96]

15 hours ago, johnparker007 said:

Just to clarify, could you please let me know your answer to the question:

 "yes or no, do you agree that testing my patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?"
 

all pointers point to the answer being YES at this time

 

once cash attack is tested we will know more

Edited May 18, 2022 by andrew96

[johnparker007]

So you are saying:  

Yes, testing John's patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage.

I will buy the machine, and if it proves the payout percentage isn't broken, we're all good

I am buying this machine, purely to show this to you!  (As it's not even reading the Chr chip, it will be the same as MFME).  But it's best to be sure, provided the machine doesn't cost a fortune to get to my kitchen in Sheffield, I'm not a moneyed man lol.

Edited May 18, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

just wait till I have done cash attack first, I am all for finding out!

the niggling thing in my mind is barcrest used 3 lamp tables and didn't always read them out in sequence, and this happens through out the game very very regularly, why would they do that? it only needs to be checked occasionally like the character check does. this is my way of thinking

[andrew96]

Now patched with the MFME lamp table and works fine in MFME with all chr data cleared

 

And its using John Parkers code for the lamp table in the rom

 

so am getting his roms to modify hopefully tomorrow night, so should now be a easy task to do the 2 roms 

Edited May 18, 2022 by andrew96

[johnparker007]

I have said that I believe my patched ROMs do not have payout percentage issues.  This newer series of ROM is not one I've built/tested patching for... so I don't see how it in any way proves that for instance my Cloud 999 ROM which was the original one you said would have the problems will have payout percentage issues on real hardware.

I need to buy an MPU4 machine, and play £2,000 through my patched Cloud 999 ROM.  If the meters at the end show the payout percentage is ok, then that's what actually proves the payout percentage is ok  

Is your friend going to play through £2,000 worth of credits from a RAM reset, using your patched ROM in a real Cash Attack, to determine if the payout percentage is wrong? 

He needs to be sure to reset the meters before he starts, then he can just divide total out / total in, and get the true measured payout percentage.  I did a beermat calculation and to run through £2k on Cloud 999 will probably take me like 12 hours of continuous play...

But that's the only way to determine payout percentage to an accurate enough level (by getting a statistically significant number of spins)... I did it already with MFME and showed them to be approximately the same measured payout percentage (original Cloud 999 ROM, my patched Cloud 999 ROM).

Edited May 18, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

26 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:

I have said that I believe my patched ROMs do not have payout percentage issues. 

why? I still don't understand.....that's a bold statement when the figures used for the table bear no relation to any of the figures in a actual real chip, I have proved that basically the keys are different one table against three in a real chip.

 

I can understand its great for mfme as that's designed around 1 table, a real machine is designed around 3

 

whatever machine is tested we are still comparing one lamp table against 3 so whatever the age of machine is not a factor

[johnparker007]

16 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

why? I still don't understand.....that's a bold statement

I've already tested in MFME with £2,000 - original and patched Cloud 999 ROM, as this was the one you suggested was the standout worst offender for broken percentage - the percentage was not found to be broken, after 10,000 spins (£2,000 into machine):


After this, you then said - 'the MFME test doesn't count'.  All I can do now is buy a real machine, and perform the same test on that real hardware, using my Chr-free patched Cloud 999 ROM.

You have agreed above, that:

Yes, testing John's patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage.

So, I need to buy the machine and perform the test - and then I hope we can agree that's the end of it    I will film segments of the test, and showing the meters going up, and upload it all to youtube as incontrovertible proof of the payout not being affected, though it will take maybe 12-16 hours to play off the 10,000 spins.
  

16 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

 the age of machine is not a factor

Now, that is  a bold statement   These newer machines I have not investigated building patches for, and measuring post-patch performance - so I don't know what additional protection measures may be present.  This doesn't apply to any  of my patches on the earlier ROMs though, as I've play-tested quite a few myself, and of course done the £2k Cloud 999 percentage payout test, and saw no adverse effects from patching.

Edited May 18, 2022 by johnparker007

[andrew96]

he is going to find out tomorrow what version of cloud 999 he had

[andrew96]

Patching of the  128k rom is much the same on the later machines, you just have to do it twice for chr and checksum before its happy, and you have to add in 2 identical lamp tables and change the #802 / #803 references to the chr chip 4 times. I remember you saying some you did you found 8 occurrences to have to patch, so this is not that different to yours, It just took me most of a day to do it

Edited May 18, 2022 by andrew96