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2 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:


So - if I were to buy (or hopefully borrow) a Cloud 999 - and then run the original ROM and then my Chr-free patch version... and they both pay out the same % over £2,000 in... there is not an issue?  

It's a massive pain, but I will try procure a machine, if it means we can scientifically prove whether or not there is a real problem :) 

no,the patched rom will overpay in a real machine as it won't have the 3 correct lamp tables in

Edited by andrew96
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Well I think the only thing that can be done to prove it is getting an MPU4 machine.

As Andrew has agreed above, that if I test the Cloud 999 chr-free patched ROM in a real machine, and then the payout percentage is correct - then there is no issue.

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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1 minute ago, serene02 said:

Who hacked his roms Andy?

J

@andrew96 this is a good point!

Perhaps if your friend tried my Chr free patched ROM in his Cloud 999, he would see different results:

clnv_PATCHED.zip

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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Just now, serene02 said:

Could you get a digital copy of them?  Be interesting to just run them through mfme to see how they perform.

Also this!  :)  That'd be great if possible please.

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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a real machine uses 3 different lamp tables, mfme uses 1 and the 1 table mfme uses WILL work in a real machine but causes percentage problems in a real machine..... 

 

that's my findings so far backed up by a arcade operator that's used chr hacked roms. what more can I do!!!

5 minutes ago, serene02 said:

Who hacked his roms Andy?

J

I patched out the chr years ago, its not difficult to do by hand

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@serene02 if this doesn't resolve, perhaps you could use your skills to find me a cheap beaten up MPU4 machine ;)  Then I could use it with the Cloud 999 ROMs to perform the test, which will show definitively one way or the other if there is a payout issue.

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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running patched or non patched roms in MFME wont do any good at all as MFME only uses ONE lamp table, so results will be the same patched or unpatched, mfme will not prove or disprove a thing!!!

real machines have THREE completely different lamp tables in the chr chip, if a rom is patched with the one from MFME yes it works but screws over the machine, It appears to me there is more going on with the lamp tables than just lamps...

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So we’d expect to see your hack to work fine and keep its percentage in mfme, we can test that if you upload your hacked roms. It will definitely mean that something else is going on with how mfme interacts with the protection.

J

Edited by serene02
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4 minutes ago, serene02 said:

your rom will keep control of its percentage in mfme, which would prove your theory correct about mfme.

J

At this stage we need more rigour, as just seeing the ROM perform correctly in MFME doesn't give us objective proof that it performs incorrectly in a real machine.

That said, if the ROM performs incorrectly in MFME, that just suggests a botched patch.

At this point, I would need to get a real MPU4 machine, that I can use to test Chr free patched ROMs such as Cloud 999.

Then I can provide 100% definitive irrefutable proof that there isn't a payout % issue... or there is an issue, which I can then fix.

Otherwise I fear we are going round in circles here :)  

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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1 minute ago, serene02 said:

So we’d expect to see your hack to work fine and keep its percentage in mfme, we can test that if you upload your hacked roms. It will definitely mean that something else is going on.

J

forget mfme, it uses ONE LAMP TABLE, a real machine uses 3 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT LAMP TABLES, MFME wont prove or disprove anything!! your trying to compare oranges with pineapples!

Edited by andrew96
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6 minutes ago, serene02 said:

Yeah, I can look out for an MPU4 for you bud.  Probably not a cloud 999, I’m not made of money ;)

J

That would be great thanks, as I know you used to buy machines - I've no idea where to look, and don't have an eBay account after that iPhone fiasco many moons ago.

If we just have a cheap tatty MPU4 machine, I can play the Chr-free Cloud 999 ROMs in it, and check percentage from meters after £2,000 through it... and that will be enough to test whether there is a problem or not.

Do you agree @andrew96 that this will definitively prove whether there is a problem with the payout percentage on the Chr-free patched ROM?

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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perhaps this might help to see the problem, top is the patched figures for hyper viper club in MFME

 

below are the 3 lamp table values held in the CHR chip, as you can see not one figure matches the ones used in MFME!!

but the mfme and CHR produce the right lamp sequencing on a real machine..... but using the MFME table on a real machine causes problems...

 

as you can see the real 3 tables are correct for the machine, these I read out using my fluke 9010 so I know they are correct, but remember the last 2 bits of each hex number are discarded in all cases which is not been applied to these raw figures

 

IMG_6260.jpg.0ab426ed91680390f02f3efd298cf149.jpg

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@andrew96 But yes or no, do you agree that testing the patched Cloud 999 ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?

This seems like all we need to do, as the next step :) 

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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12 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:

@andrew96 But yes or no, do you agree that testing the patched Cloud 999 ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?

This seems like all we need to do, as the next step :) 

well its in a real arcade so thats not possible, he proved it some ago

 

IMG_6256.jpg

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4 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

well its in a real arcade so thats not possible, he proved it some ago


I don't understand :) 

I am going to buy an MPU4 machine, and test my Chr-free patched Cloud 999 ROM in it, for a total of £2,000 in.  Then I'll read the meters, and that will tell us the actual payout percentage that took place over that £2,000.

Do you agree that this will absolutely prove one way or the other if the payout percentage is correct/broken?

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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21 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

well this is why he thought cash attack would be a good machine to test it on, I just need the lamp table from mfme for it if someone can tell me it then we can prove it.

Here are the lamp values for Cash Attack MPU4:
image.png.5442c7a918cf83ae15a0ea4c6273d7dd.png

In terms of my previous question, just to make sure we're on the same page :) :

yes or no, do you agree that testing my patched Cloud 999 Chr-free ROM in a real MPU4 machine over here for £2,000 in, and checking payout percentage from meters out/in ratio, will then definitively prove if there's a problem with payout percentage?

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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