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8 minutes ago, gemini17 said:

This is all truly incredible and mesmerising to see, walk around and play(well when I understand how to play a machine-lol)

I am slowly going through the 100's of pages on the topic but sadly with supporting 3 family members with disabilities I'm not quite up to speed.

I'm also not the brightest with any tech John but will get there in the end.

I will send on a donation shortly as I will be sending on my annual donation to this incredible site.

Many thanks to one and all who have contributed to the project and continue to give up many hours of their personal life to keep the site alive in so many ways.

You are all stars with such incredible individual talents.

 

Jay

If you have it installed enough to walk around the Arcade, then the other thing is you need the latest MFME installed from here, and it also needs to be updated.  Apologies this can't all be done automatically for MFME, due to stuff out of my control :) 

If you are having problems playing a machine (walk up to one and press the Enter key), let us know and we should be able to get you up and running.

Good luck! :) 

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[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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2 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:

If you have it installed enough to walk around the Arcade, then the other thing is you need the latest MFME installed from here, and it also needs to be updated.  Apologies this can't all be done automatically for MFME, due to stuff out of my control :) 

If you are having problems playing a machine (walk up to one and press the Enter key), let us know and we should be able to get you up and running.

Good luck! :) 

Many thanks for your help.

Jay

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13 minutes ago, serene02 said:

All machines have to control percentage, what’s he talking about?

J

he explained it to me in a video, nudges and blocking, but I can see you don't like it

Its apparently actually really obvious in this real machine hence why its a good one to test with/without chr

 

I am trying to help get to the bottom of this the best I can!

Edited by andrew96
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33 minutes ago, serene02 said:

What don’t I like?  More testing is needed, but any machine would just need to go through a normal auto play test in mfme, the machine would just naturally find it’s percentage over x amount of spins, if there aren’t any issues obviously.

J

but mfme is a emulator, it emulates! we don't know how it emulates real hardware.  we are talking about testing on real machines which is why the chr needs to be in place......

 

the EMULATOR DOES NOT EMULATE THE 3 DIFFERENT LAMP TABLE RESULTS!  This is what we are testing!! real chr with 3 lamp tables in, and the hacked chr which has JUST THE ONE, on REAL hardware

Edited by andrew96
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55 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

is there a mpu4 cash attack in mfme? he thinks that will be a good one to test to see what happens as it needs to control it's self!

Unfortunately that is a late MPU4, and needs a new iteration of the checksum bypass - so my current system cannot patch it!  So I can't make a Chr-free ROM of that particular MPU4 game (I also can't do ones with 128kb ROMs yet).

I guess the only way I can check into this more is buying an MPU4 machine :/  We've done the emulator test now with Cloud 999 and £2,000 in both original and patched ROMs, and they worked out pretty much identical payout percentage, so if there is an issue, it only exists on the real machine.

Is there any way I could get a cheap one?  I can't imagine so, as I have had a look and they seem hard to find near Sheffield, and pretty expensive too, presumably as they're rare due to being old.

It's the only way to properly see whether there's a problem or not - I don't own any fruit machines, so this is really painful to progress any further...

Don't suppose you fancy lending me yours Andrew? ;)  Joking lol, these things are just too bloody bulky, massive pain to get them from A to B (I don't have a car)

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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ah thanks john, I was hoping to get the patched lamp table results so we can compare a real chr with the 3 different tables against the patched rom which has just the one, or I can make a chr with just 1 lamp table in, that's why I need mfme lamp table result!

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2 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:


I guess the only way I can check into this more is buying an MPU4 machine :/  We've done the emulator test now with Cloud 999 and £2,000 in both original and patched ROMs, and they worked out pretty much identical payout percentage, so if there is an issue, it only exists on the real machine.

I

yes this wont work as in the post above mfme only uses 1 lamp table which is not the same as a real machine that has 3 completely different lamp tables in , thats why it needs testing on real machines!

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2 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

no amount of testing on mfme will reproduse anything, its useless to do so as it only uses one lamp table which is NOT the same as any of the 3 values in the real chr lamp table

Bear in mind that a Chr-free patched ROM does not communicate with the Chr chip at all.

So the logic running on the 6809 CPU emulated in MFME should be pretty identical to the logic running on real hardware, when using a Chr-free patched ROM.  You don't even need the Chr chip plugged in (unless it's performing some electronics function like stabilising board voltage or whatever).

The ability to read/write to it is entirely removed from the program code when I do a chr-free patch.  So I'd expect the payout percentage to be the same as in the emulator test above.  There will be no effects from subtleties of reading/writing the Chr chip, as it can't.

Hope that makes some kind of sense! :) 

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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4 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:


Don't suppose you fancy lending me yours Andrew? ;)  Joking lol, these things are just too bloody bulky, massive pain to get them from A to B (I don't have a car)

I only have hyper viper club and I would not have a clue if its playing good or not, I know nothing about gameplay, where as my frind I am asking is SH*T hot on knowing everything there is about gameplay but is difficult to hold of!

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2 minutes ago, johnparker007 said:

Bear in mind that a Chr-free patched ROM does not communicate with the Chr chip at all.

So the logic running on the 6809 CPU emulated in MFME should be pretty identical to the logic running on real hardware, when using a Chr-free patched ROM.  You don't even need the Chr chip plugged in (unless it's performing some electronics function like stabilising board voltage or whatever).

The ability to read/write to it is entirely removed from the program code when I do a chr-free patch.  So I'd expect the payout percentage to be the same as in the emulator test above.  There will be no effects from subtleties of reading/writing the Chr chip, as it can't.

Hope that makes some kind of sense! :) 

but in a REAL machine there are 3 different lamp tables it access where as mfme or a patched rom just has 1 completely different table, that is what is causing the differences.

Edited by andrew96
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8 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

but there are 3 different lamp tables it access where as mfme or a patched rom just has 1 table, that is what is causing the differences.

So by 'differences' above ^^^    you mean, the overall payout percentage over time?

If I had a real MPU4 machine here, I could:

1. install a Chr-free ROM
2. reset RAM
3. reset meters
4. play ~£2,000 through it
5. note down the Total In/Out numbers from the meters.

Then, repeat above steps, but using the original ROM.  (so performing the same test as was done above with MFME, but using a real MPU4 machine.  Ideally a Cloud 999, as I'd need the Chr chip for the 'original rom' test, and Cloud 99 is meant to have problems, based on your friend's info).

If the payout percentage (ratio between the Total Out / Total In from the meters) is the same for both the Chr-free patched ROM, and the original ROM... would that then mean that we have satisfactorily resolved this as a non-issue?

Edited by johnparker007

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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I see what your not getting, the first read of the table gives one set of numbers out, then the cpu will address the SAME bytes again and the CHR switches internally to table 2, then on the 3rd read the chr switches to table 3, then the cpu does this over and over for a bit...table 1, 2, then 3, then the code just reads the high part of the table out, then again which is table 2 then again which it table 3 and on and on............

 

when the program code does this in mfme it has just the one table that gets read over and over etc........ when this happens in a real machine it is THIS that upsets it....

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as I keep saying, the emulator is just that it emulates! it is not the same as a real machine mfme does not use 3 lamp tables as I guess Chris did not know there were 3 as I only found that out recently, and none of the 3 tables are the same as in mfme, but the one table from mfme does work in a real machine it just upsets it

Edited by andrew96
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Sorry man - please see previous comment, I'm suggesting:

Buy Cloud 999 machine, then:

1. install a Chr-free patched ROM
2. reset RAM
3. reset meters
4. play ~£2,000 through it
5. note down the Total In/Out numbers from the meters.

Then, repeat above steps, but using the original ROM + Chr chip.

If the payout percentages are the same, do you agree that this is then resolved as a non-issue?

I think that all makes perfect sense - no need to have theories, simply do the rigorous scientific test, and observe the result :) 

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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Just now, johnparker007 said:

Sorry man - please see previous comment, I'm suggesting:

Buy Cloud 999 machine, then:

1. install a Chr-free patched ROM
2. reset RAM
3. reset meters
4. play ~£2,000 through it
5. note down the Total In/Out numbers from the meters.

Then, repeat above steps, but using the original ROM + Chr chip.

If the payout percentages are the same, do you agree that this is then resolved as a non-issue?

I think that all makes perfect sense - no need to have theories, simply do the rigorous scientific test, and observe the result :) 

yes it overpays and takes no notice of the percentage key when using a PATCHED ROM without the correct 3 tables for the lamps

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its all about having 3 lamp tables for the real machine, with one lamp table they don't play correctly, that's what I am trying to get across, its not that MFME is wrong, no amount of playing that will recreate anything as its made to work with one lamp table and could be compensated or tricked into working correctly where as a real machine is not tricked by 1 lamp table at all

 

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3 minutes ago, andrew96 said:

yes it overpays and takes no notice of the percentage key when using a PATCHED ROM without the correct 3 tables for the lamps


So - if I were to buy (or hopefully borrow) a Cloud 999 - and then run the original ROM and then my Chr-free patch version... and they both pay out the same % over £2,000 in... there is not an issue?  

It's a massive pain, but I will try procure a machine, if it means we can scientifically prove whether or not there is a real problem :) 

[ Arcade Simulator ] Pre-alpha installer: http://arcadesimulator.net  |  Known Issues: https://tinyurl.com/yz4uom2e  |  Donation info: https://tinyurl.com/yzvgl4xo
[ Community Drive ] The drive: http://tinyurl.com/yckze665
[ Fruit Machine Database ] Initial google sheets (WIP): https://tinyurl.com/2c5znxzz
[ MFME Launch ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/MFMELaunch
[ Oasis ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/Oasis
[ Sound ROM Editor ] Source code: https://github.com/johnparker007/SoundRomEditor

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