Emptiers, who won, who lost?

[MikeP]

When I was an amateur player back in the day, while I was a member at the CMA and Arcadia sites (remember them?), the good stuff never came from them but from players I met on my travels.  But I tended to get it late.  But I ask the question now as someone who certainly won when I had knowledge, and lost when I didn’t.  Who profited from emptiers?  Some players, obviously, and occasionally I was one.  

But the bigger picture, starting way back 1992,  ACE certainly seemed to lose massive market share after the ACE lines debacle.  So they lost.  And are now extinct.  

Barcrest - what were they on, that they couldn’t properly fix Lotta Luck, Jackpoteers and the rest, was there a need for some players to be seen to win by the industry around this time, it would explain a lot…

I’ve learnt from watching @Chopaholic excellent videos about the horror show of the emptiers in the £70 era - horrific, I had stopped playing these games by then, thankfully.  

But in the end, did the compensated AWP die out because of emptiers?  And if so when?  I’d be interested in your thoughts.

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by MikeP

[serene02]

Ace carried on releasing machines way after the lines issue, in fact they released some later £10/£15 jackpot that could be emptied from certain features exploits, even games like Caesars' Palace could be emptied in certain situations as well as Pot of Gold and maybe Robin Hood.  They still released games on £25 jackpot.  They are not around any longer but I'm pretty sure they didn't stop until early 2000's.

I don't think AWP died due to emptiers, ultimately I believe it's a combination of jackpot value and gameplay.  Games became boring as there was little scope for any real game depth or skill involved.  I'd probably still have a dabble if the jackpot was capped at £10/£15 with the chance of a streak etc.

J

[spa]

For me, it seemed like Bell Fruit were putting in little rips simply to keep up with Barcrest (£70 era). The moment Barcrest stopped making machines, was pretty much the moment 'tricks' disappeared! Well, I guess there are still some about, but in the mid to late £70 era, pretty much everything had something on it, and every Barcrest £70 was doable.

With Barcrest not being about to update their £70s to £100s, all those playables vanished! Bell fruit had the market share, smacked a dongle in, opened the door to Reflex and right there was game over for the AWP. Nobody wanted a dongle and Reflexes were just terrible. Was about then I came out of it and concentrated on my career instead.

Digitals took over, easy updates, no machine moving, but still lots of software issues, issues that got fixed much quicker from what I understand.

[Chopaholic]

I think rips and emptiers played a part in the demise of the AWP, in conjunction with the stakes and jackpots getting far too large.

In the Alien video I reuploaded the other week you can see one of its clones ( @spa's real machine in fact!) wanting over £70 just to get on the board. That's a terrible state for a machine to be in, and is only made possible by (a) The machine being so doable and (b) The jackpot being so large.

Yes machines were doable right back in the £4.80 and £6 days, but there was kind of a limit as to how bad they could get. As the jackpots got larger the 'debt' the machine could be left having to recoup also became larger, how many casual players are going to bother with machines once they've had £20 disappear in cold blood a couple of times and not even get a feature?

I remember when Pie Factory first turned up over here, there were a few of them around and to start with I didn't have the method, but I did know enough by then to know when a machine was being fucked, and quickly cottoned on it was blocking at £2 (someone else was doing them), so even though I didn't know how to do them myself, I knew they'd been done and to leave them alone. In due course I got the method and made some good money on them, they could be left bad enough on the £15 jackpot, on the £25 jackpot they could be left wanting over £50 to go through the £2 block - a terrible experience for a casual player.

The industry killed itself IMO, with a combination of incompetence/corruption when it came to the machines themselves, leaving them vulnerable to all kinds of fuckery that made them a miserable experience for anyone who didn't have 'the knowledge', and the constant pursuit of bigger and bigger and jackpots, at the expense of actual amusement and gameplay.

[vectra666]

All land machines are going online now even the early rainbow riches , reel kings etc were loaded up by satellite/ online via their websites etc  as some bingo ones couldn’t be played till after 2pm as in when the bingo halls allowed them to be played

so I suppose the updates are simply downloaded when the next updates due. 
too many issues will reels slipping, bulbs blowing and now it’s contactless payout so even the hoppers and coin slots will disappear next 

notes only if your lucky

just think what’s a typical arcade gonna look like in 2050?? 

[woodsy]

2 hours ago, vectra666 said:

All land machines are going online now even the early rainbow riches , reel kings etc were loaded up by satellite/ online via their websites etc  as some bingo ones couldn’t be played till after 2pm as in when the bingo halls allowed them to be played

so I suppose the updates are simply downloaded when the next updates due. 
too many issues will reels slipping, bulbs blowing and now it’s contactless payout so even the hoppers and coin slots will disappear next 

notes only if your lucky

just think what’s a typical arcade gonna look like in 2050?? 

I’ve touched on this several times in the coinslot magazine thread, bacta already have licenses and government approval for completely cashless arcades and machines, I must am terrified of that, if I were to relapse badly in the bookies of the future using my linked bank accounts etc the losses don’t bear thinking about, at the very least with cash you physically feel your losses, and if you have to run to a cash point you get a last gasp chance to stop, but virtual balances not physical coins removes the common sense aspect. The simple addition of pressing a button to hide your balance while playing is shockingly blatant proof that they know this is more profit than sense.

[vectra666]

47 minutes ago, woodsy said:

I’ve touched on this several times in the coinslot magazine thread, bacta already have licenses and government approval for completely cashless arcades and machines, I must am terrified of that, if I were to relapse badly in the bookies of the future using my linked bank accounts etc the losses don’t bear thinking about, at the very least with cash you physically feel your losses, and if you have to run to a cash point you get a last gasp chance to stop, but virtual balances not physical coins removes the common sense aspect. The simple addition of pressing a button to hide your balance while playing is shockingly blatant proof that they know this is more profit than sense.

Another way to empty peoples bank account out quicker 

they’ll say you have options to quit, but what addict really does that but like the hour thingy on online slots

”you’ve been playing for a hour, lost shitloads do you want to carry on and lose another shitload”?? How many people actually think “we’ll I better stop now” and press leave? Not a lot

[spa]

5 hours ago, Chopaholic said:

I think rips and emptiers played a part in the demise of the AWP, in conjunction with the stakes and jackpots getting far too large.

In the Alien video I reuploaded the other week you can see one of its clones ( @spa's real machine in fact!) wanting over £70 just to get on the board. That's a terrible state for a machine to be in, and is only made possible by (a) The machine being so doable and (b) The jackpot being so large.

Yes machines were doable right back in the £4.80 and £6 days, but there was kind of a limit as to how bad they could get. As the jackpots got larger the 'debt' the machine could be left having to recoup also became larger, how many casual players are going to bother with machines once they've had £20 disappear in cold blood a couple of times and not even get a feature?

I remember when Pie Factory first turned up over here, there were a few of them around and to start with I didn't have the method, but I did know enough by then to know when a machine was being fucked, and quickly cottoned on it was blocking at £2 (someone else was doing them), so even though I didn't know how to do them myself, I knew they'd been done and to leave them alone. In due course I got the method and made some good money on them, they could be left bad enough on the £15 jackpot, on the £25 jackpot they could be left wanting over £50 to go through the £2 block - a terrible experience for a casual player.

The industry killed itself IMO, with a combination of incompetence/corruption when it came to the machines themselves, leaving them vulnerable to all kinds of fuckery that made them a miserable experience for anyone who didn't have 'the knowledge', and the constant pursuit of bigger and bigger and jackpots, at the expense of actual amusement and gameplay.

This £70 odd for a board was a p4. p1 and p2 was closer to £140, just to get a £1 win. Superholds would critical alarm as they were going to far over % the machine would throw a fit. When you think.... Horizon cab. It was playable unless it was a crazy trails, and then it still kinda was, just not worth the time imo.

[MikeP]

23 hours ago, serene02 said:

Ace carried on releasing machines way after the lines issue, in fact they released some later £10/£15 jackpot that could be emptied from certain features exploits, even games like Caesars' Palace could be emptied in certain situations as well as Pot of Gold and maybe Robin Hood.  They still released games on £25 jackpot.  They are not around any longer but I'm pretty sure they didn't stop until early 2000's.

I don't think AWP died due to emptiers, ultimately I believe it's a combination of jackpot value and gameplay.  Games became boring as there was little scope for any real game depth or skill involved.  I'd probably still have a dabble if the jackpot was capped at £10/£15 with the chance of a streak etc.

J

Yes, agreed, Ace did release machines in the £15/£25 era - and some very playable machines too.  But there weren’t that many about, compared to their machines in the £4.80 era which were absolutely everywhere, so there was definitely a realignment in the later 1990s away from Ace, and towards Barcrest, Maygay and JPM.  

Agree about the gameplay and jackpot value issue.  It turned the games from AWP to pure gambling, and the random digital ones do that better, I guess.  But this is the thing, I now want to play old games on MFME with the gameplay more than I want to play £100 random games in pubs for the gambling hit (and don’t even mention FOBTs!).  

Edited March 28, 2022 by MikeP

[Cavey]

"But in the end, did the compensated AWP die out because of emptiers?  And if so when?  I’d be interested in your thoughts."

This is a subject that I've endlessly posted about before, including way, way back in the day. Some 20 years or so back over at the now long-defunct Fruit Forums, I was laughed at when I said that one day soon enough, all - or most - fruit machines would be random, not compensated, and they would still have plenty of features, bonus rounds and all the rest, much in the same vein as the stuff we were all playing back then. Well, that certainly doesn't look so far fetched now, eh chaps?

The principal reason underpinning my reasoning at that time was (and still is) the inherently flawed model of compensated games. If games are *not* truly random, this surely calls into question the whole mechanism that is used in lieu; when a game is deemed to be required to pay out by the code and under what specific set of circumstances that this occurs. Potentially, a whole big can of worms is opened regarding the "fairness" of this; whether Player A is conferred a (possibly unfair) advantage over Player B becuase he's awesome at skill stops, has a detailed knowledge of how each feature behaves and under what circumstances (e.g. the number showing on the hi-lo reel or whatever other setup) - or is using an entirely counter-intuitive illicit "cheat" built into the code that he has exclusive knowledge of; something that could never be reasonably discovered during normal play.

No-one would ever suggest that a slot in Vegas could be programmed in such a manner; the very thought of a machine with a progressive jackpot of tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars being at the whim of a select few bent players with "good connections" would be risible, most would agree. (In fact, the RNG powering slots in Vegas has to be rigorously tested, certified and licensed for this very reason).

For some reason, though, no-one in the UK was that bothered about having similar concerns for hapless fruit machine players here, presumably on the premise along the lines of the games are not true gambling but "amusement with prizes", with supposedly inconsequentially low jackpots or whatever, no different in principle to a bent toy -grabbing crane machine on a fairground that everyone is supposed to "know" is bent? (How all this is supposed to work with club machines having exactly the same problems/exploits having jackpots of £200-£400 is anyone's guess). Let's be honest; if Fair Play taught us anything at all, it told us that fruit machine players were generally regarded as pond scum unworthy of even basic protection from being taken for an absolute ride, and we basically deserved all we got for being stupid enough to play "one armed bandits".

I remember with wry amusement my unshakable belief that fruit machines simply *had* to be fair - because "mumble, mumble, computers innit" - and thinking that people would be up in arms were this not the case? To say that the advent of the internet, the FME Scene and the emulators has been illuminating in this respect would be an understatement.

I think, to answer the question, the compensated AWP began to die at the £8-£10JP era, went into further decline by £15JP and was dead as a dodo at £25JP. This was likely due to a number of factors; the increasing JP to stake ratio meant that JPs had to be harder to get (increasing the importance of emptiers, illicit cheats to do so); the presumed sharing of such illicit info among "pro" players, making the likelihood of casual players "not in the know" encountering more and more dead, raped machines; the catastrophic loss of credibility of fruit machines amongst the playing public. Who sees the once ubiquitous fruit machine in pubs and cafes now?

As to who came out on top and who lost because of emptiers and the like, well, I've had a couple of decades to reconsider my answer on that score. I used to look on in envy at pro players who had "the knowledge"; who were always able to reliably return a good profit (at others' expense) by playing the machines. Not any more though, as I have come to realise that they were still paying a heavy price for those perks. How many of them are still, even now, shovelling thousands into machines - or more likely FOBTs at bookies, online slots or whatever - still scratching the itch? Even playing fruit machines that you know you're going to win on still feeds the gambling monster.

Back in 2003, I left fruit machines in disgust; one dead JPM too many,  a severe beating at a casino. I'll be honest and say that in the last 20-odd years I've had perhaps 3-5 "relapses", a dabble at an online casino here or there, but essentially been gambling free apart from a daft bet on the National or the Lottery etc. My life has been transformed beyond any recognition between then and now; I've been able to get my shit together well and truly, and never looked back. For me, the people who (ironically) came out on top from emptiers are those casual players who finally got *so* pissed off, that even they realised they were literally burning fivers in the street and would never, ever win - ever - and finally got the impetus they needed to fuck fruit machines off forever.

That's my take on it anyhow lol.

[woodsy]

25 minutes ago, Cavey said:

"But in the end, did the compensated AWP die out because of emptiers?  And if so when?  I’d be interested in your thoughts."

This is a subject that I've endlessly posted about before, including way, way back in the day. Some 20 years or so back over at the now long-defunct Fruit Forums, I was laughed at when I said that one day soon enough, all - or most - fruit machines would be random, not compensated, and they would still have plenty of features, bonus rounds and all the rest, much in the same vein as the stuff we were all playing back then. Well, that certainly doesn't look so far fetched now, eh chaps?

The principal reason underpinning my reasoning at that time was (and still is) the inherently flawed model of compensated games. If games are *not* truly random, this surely calls into question the whole mechanism that is used in lieu; when a game is deemed to be required to pay out by the code and under what specific set of circumstances that this occurs. Potentially, a whole big can of worms is opened regarding the "fairness" of this; whether Player A is conferred a (possibly unfair) advantage over Player B becuase he's awesome at skill stops, has a detailed knowledge of how each feature behaves and under what circumstances (e.g. the number showing on the hi-lo reel or whatever other setup) - or is using an entirely counter-intuitive illicit "cheat" built into the code that he has exclusive knowledge of; something that could never be reasonably discovered during normal play.

No-one would ever suggest that a slot in Vegas could be programmed in such a manner; the very thought of a machine with a progressive jackpot of tens (or hundreds) of thousands of dollars being at the whim of a select few bent players with "good connections" would be risible, most would agree. (In fact, the RNG powering slots in Vegas has to be rigorously tested, certified and licensed for this very reason).

For some reason, though, no-one in the UK was that bothered about having similar concerns for hapless fruit machine players here, presumably on the premise along the lines of the games are not true gambling but "amusement with prizes", with supposedly inconsequentially low jackpots or whatever, no different in principle to a bent toy -grabbing crane machine on a fairground that everyone is supposed to "know" is bent? (How all this is supposed to work with club machines having exactly the same problems/exploits having jackpots of £200-£400 is anyone's guess). Let's be honest; if Fair Play taught us anything at all, it told us that fruit machine players were generally regarded as pond scum unworthy of even basic protection from being taken for an absolute ride, and we basically deserved all we got for being stupid enough to play "one armed bandits".

I remember with wry amusement my unshakable belief that fruit machines simply *had* to be fair - because "mumble, mumble, computers innit" - and thinking that people would be up in arms were this not the case? To say that the advent of the internet, the FME Scene and the emulators has been illuminating in this respect would be an understatement.

I think, to answer the question, the compensated AWP began to die at the £8-£10JP era, went into further decline by £15JP and was dead as a dodo at £25JP. This was likely due to a number of factors; the increasing JP to stake ratio meant that JPs had to be harder to get (increasing the importance of emptiers, illicit cheats to do so); the presumed sharing of such illicit info among "pro" players, making the likelihood of casual players "not in the know" encountering more and more dead, raped machines; the catastrophic loss of credibility of fruit machines amongst the playing public. Who sees the once ubiquitous fruit machine in pubs and cafes now?

As to who came out on top and who lost because of emptiers and the like, well, I've had a couple of decades to reconsider my answer on that score. I used to look on in envy at pro players who had "the knowledge"; who were always able to reliably return a good profit (at others' expense) by playing the machines. Not any more though, as I have come to realise that they were still paying a heavy price for those perks. How many of them are still, even now, shovelling thousands into machines - or more likely FOBTs at bookies, online slots or whatever - still scratching the itch? Even playing fruit machines that you know you're going to win on still feeds the gambling monster.

Back in 2003, I left fruit machines in disgust; one dead JPM too many,  a severe beating at a casino. I'll be honest and say that in the last 20-odd years I've had perhaps 3-5 "relapses", a dabble at an online casino here or there, but essentially been gambling free apart from a daft bet on the National or the Lottery etc. My life has been transformed beyond any recognition between then and now; I've been able to get my shit together well and truly, and never looked back. For me, the people who (ironically) came out on top from emptiers are those casual players who finally got *so* pissed off, that even they realised they were literally burning fivers in the street and would never, ever win - ever - and finally got the impetus they needed to fuck fruit machines off forever.

That's my take on it anyhow lol.

Just to add to your valid and comprehensive breakdown, in totally agree with also, the other things that killed the fruit machine came at the same time as you say £25 era, s as they also changed the licenses making it unviable for take away and cafés to have the single machine in place, whilst I don’t know in detail the exact figures I know from many Owners that it was the death of your kebab ship fruit punts etc. that removed the door to door availability for all and sundry to play a machine moving them to places that could afford the licenses and had space to make it worthwhile. In my opinion it also added to the death of the way it was for most of you us from youth into adulthood. And in addition to your thoughts, adds to your, what I believe, defining bullet points and explanations for the way things are.

[serene02]

I remember when I was a lot younger, mid 80’s, they used to have a fruit machine in a fair few chip shops round here. The amount of times I spent my money on the fruity instead of getting food is just ridiculous!!

J

[Cavey]

1 hour ago, serene02 said:

I remember when I was a lot younger, mid 80’s, they used to have a fruit machine in a fair few chip shops round here. The amount of times I spent my money on the fruity instead of getting food is just ridiculous!!

J

Heh! You and me both mate.... although I still to this day remember the resident MPU3 Strike-a-Light giving me the 555 £3 repeat hold four times for a princely £15 in tokens, which left the punters queuing for their chippy tea stunned (and me too for that matter). Gah, must've been around 1984, not far shy of 40 bloody years ago. Funny how you remember shite like this.

[woodsy]

3 minutes ago, Cavey said:

Heh! You and me both mate.... although I still to this day remember the resident MPU3 Strike-a-Light giving me the 555 £3 repeat hold four times for a princely £15 in tokens, which left the punters queuing for their chippy tea stunned (and me too for that matter). Gah, must've been around 1984, not far shy of 40 bloody years ago. Funny how you remember shite like this.

mine was eastenders queen vic going something like 30+ in the local cafe and me being lost for words and how to spend £30 in tokens in the same game and hot rod next to it. and screenplay in butlins £3 repeating to £39 quid truly mental stuff.. witnessed thankfully.. 

[spa]

3 hours ago, serene02 said:

I remember when I was a lot younger, mid 80’s, they used to have a fruit machine in a fair few chip shops round here. The amount of times I spent my money on the fruity instead of getting food is just ridiculous!!

J

Thats everyone on here lol. After college i'd do a kebab shop run and end up going home on the last bus!

[vectra666]

5 hours ago, serene02 said:

I remember when I was a lot younger, mid 80’s, they used to have a fruit machine in a fair few chip shops round here. The amount of times I spent my money on the fruity instead of getting food is just ridiculous!!

J

That’s my downfall

working in chippy playing slots after hours

[woodsy]

2 hours ago, spa said:

Thats everyone on here lol. After college i'd do a kebab shop run and end up going home on the last bus!

hahah AFTER!!!! for me the bus to college ended at the depot where they had a cash lines £10 barcrest that i adore still... i'd od whatever lunch money i had or blagged off the olds then go to college and tell the bursary i lost my bus pass get some squidgy black and go to the bus depot for more hahaha

[monkeyboypaul]

I'm curious to know:

Who discovered the exploits? Was it a particular type of person, interest group (computer code nerd) or age demographic? I was 'only' 15 in 1995, and far more interested in girls and beer than deconstructing fruit machine programming! I noticed a lot of older 30+ players who must've been able to spot patterns and had the deeper pockets to follow through. I'd take no more than £20 out for a gamble back then, often much less. Spoke to Mr P last year, he said he'd take £100-150 out each time back then! Was it arcade employees who'd see this stuff day in, day out, and then pass it on? 

Did these people purposefully set out to find the exploits? Did they have access to a machine, or hit a specific arcade who got machines early - which must've cost them hundreds initially! Or was it a lucky stumble? Example, referring to @Chopaholic video below - how does someone know that the £6 win is free on SuperPot, or that it comes from the streak pot? There's no visual indicator, no live view of the drift? how?!

How information was documented & passed on? We're talking very early internet days. Mobile phones aren't common. Was any particular location a hotspot for this - the South East maybe? I lived in Skeggy and we knew fuck all. It was all word of mouth. 

How did players check for new chip versions in machines like SuperPots? Discretely switch it off and on again? 

I'd love to know what I was missing! 

 

As for the death of AWP - my interest waned at £15jp, I started to lose too often, and too much, plus I moved to the city & nightclubs happened. You'd still find the odd older machine in them, so i'd still dabble and often do ok (compared to the crowds who didn't grow up in arcades!). 

[Dougsta]

1 hour ago, monkeyboypaul said:

I'm curious to know:

Who discovered the exploits? Was it a particular type of person, interest group (computer code nerd) or age demographic? I was 'only' 15 in 1995, and far more interested in girls and beer than deconstructing fruit machine programming! I noticed a lot of older 30+ players who must've been able to spot patterns and had the deeper pockets to follow through. I'd take no more than £20 out for a gamble back then, often much less. Spoke to Mr P last year, he said he'd take £100-150 out each time back then! Was it arcade employees who'd see this stuff day in, day out, and then pass it on? 

Did these people purposefully set out to find the exploits? Did they have access to a machine, or hit a specific arcade who got machines early - which must've cost them hundreds initially! Or was it a lucky stumble? Example, referring to @Chopaholic video below - how does someone know that the £6 win is free on SuperPot, or that it comes from the streak pot? There's no visual indicator, no live view of the drift? how?!

How information was documented & passed on? We're talking very early internet days. Mobile phones aren't common. Was any particular location a hotspot for this - the South East maybe? I lived in Skeggy and we knew fuck all. It was all word of mouth. 

How did players check for new chip versions in machines like SuperPots? Discretely switch it off and on again? 

I'd love to know what I was missing! 

 

As for the death of AWP - my interest waned at £15jp, I started to lose too often, and too much, plus I moved to the city & nightclubs happened. You'd still find the odd older machine in them, so i'd still dabble and often do ok (compared to the crowds who didn't grow up in arcades!). 

Some good questions there! The free win issue on Maygays was a common theme (so was the permanent invincibility trick) on their games. I guess you discover it by noticing that the machine never gets unhappy when you take these wins, work out that the wins must be "free", and just keep rinsing and repeating from there. Once you've done a machine enough, you'll notice the change to the chipped version when it refuses to play ball. With Super Pots, it just never spins an 8 or 3 unless it's streaking.

Then the next Maygays you encounter you immediately start searching for ways to get over the block. I think Hot Pots had one of the Gold Pot wins free as well if you could get it over £5.

Off and On wouldn't be enough on most games, as they don't all tell you the specific revision when booting. One thing I heard of was on some games you could see a sticker/plate they added once an update had been done, if you looked between the reels. Could be urban myth.

Pros often bought and sold info between themselves, especially once they were done with an area. Visit, rob the machines, then sell the trick to a local for £200, since you'll never be back. Personally I just subtly observed others on games, especially if they looked like they knew what they were doing. I got the Jackpoteers trick that way, for one. Other stuff I worked out for myself, like optimal strategies on JPMs and certain Barcrests with a fixed streak cycle (Revolution, Gold Strike etc).

 

[Boulderdash]

On 28/03/2022 at 16:17, woodsy said:

I’ve touched on this several times in the coinslot magazine thread, bacta already have licenses and government approval for completely cashless arcades and machines, I must am terrified of that, if I were to relapse badly in the bookies of the future using my linked bank accounts etc the losses don’t bear thinking about, at the very least with cash you physically feel your losses, and if you have to run to a cash point you get a last gasp chance to stop, but virtual balances not physical coins removes the common sense aspect. The simple addition of pressing a button to hide your balance while playing is shockingly blatant proof that they know this is more profit than sense.

You're simply describing an online casino, but one where you have an actual machine rather than your computer. 

It will happen whether you like it or not, because actual cash will disappear altogether. 

[woodsy]

Just now, Boulderdash said:

You're simply describing an online casino, but one where you have an actual machine rather than your computer. 

It will happen whether you like it or not, because actual cash will disappear altogether. 

I know, still scary stuff though, as for cash they can’t for about 20 years or so but it is an eventuality

[Boulderdash]

I always disagree, politely of course, with @Chopaholicon this one, but I really don't think emptiers had anything at all to do with the death of the AWP.

The reason in my mind is simple - they became gambling machines rather than amusement machines.

As soon as this happened, the jackpot had to keep up with that available first in clubs, then bookies and casinos and now the almost unlimited jackpots online. People simply aren't interested in putting beer money into a pub fruit as they know there is no amusement and £20 could last less than five minutes.

So the only people putting any money in them are addicts and a dwindling band of players. 

It will be interesting to see what happens with the random digitals. Most pubs are simply getting rid, but they infest every spoons. 

[MikeP]

8 hours ago, monkeyboypaul said:

I'm curious to know:

Who discovered the exploits? Was it a particular type of person, interest group (computer code nerd) or age demographic? I was 'only' 15 in 1995, and far more interested in girls and beer than deconstructing fruit machine programming! I noticed a lot of older 30+ players who must've been able to spot patterns and had the deeper pockets to follow through. I'd take no more than £20 out for a gamble back then, often much less. Spoke to Mr P last year, he said he'd take £100-150 out each time back then! Was it arcade employees who'd see this stuff day in, day out, and then pass it on? 

Did these people purposefully set out to find the exploits? Did they have access to a machine, or hit a specific arcade who got machines early - which must've cost them hundreds initially! Or was it a lucky stumble? Example, referring to @Chopaholic video below - how does someone know that the £6 win is free on SuperPot, or that it comes from the streak pot? There's no visual indicator, no live view of the drift? how?!

How information was documented & passed on? We're talking very early internet days. Mobile phones aren't common. Was any particular location a hotspot for this - the South East maybe? I lived in Skeggy and we knew fuck all. It was all word of mouth. 

How did players check for new chip versions in machines like SuperPots? Discretely switch it off and on again? 

I'd love to know what I was missing! 

 

As for the death of AWP - my interest waned at £15jp, I started to lose too often, and too much, plus I moved to the city & nightclubs happened. You'd still find the odd older machine in them, so i'd still dabble and often do ok (compared to the crowds who didn't grow up in arcades!). 

Very good questions, and maybe as an amateur rather than a pro player, I can offer an answer.  

The absolute first thing you needed to know is that these methods existed in the first place.  Seems silly to say that, but until I found out about the Ace lines method, it would never have even occurred to me that any such method was possible.  So this would have been 1992, I even remember where it was.  Knutsford services on the M6.  There were a few Ace games and I was playing an Open The Box 4.80 as you would normally play it, get double bars, exchange and nudge fast for the jackpot.  While celebrating my win (on a machine which didn’t have many tokens in it, wonder why?) a couple of guys playing the machines next to mine, told me (bragging) I was playing it wrong there was a ‘system’, no more than that, but I noticed one of them had taken line 6 off nudge time - the mystery win in 20p’s.  Weird.  So I watched players on future occasions doing this and figured it out that the lines were free.  

So once you know that such methods existed, I would look out for them.  I played a lot in motorway services at the time and knew the games, so anyone doing anything unusual attracted my attention.  That might mean taking one feature win only, playing to lose, refusing to take obvious wins, and losing body language like shaking the head, or swearing, while actually winning.  I watched those people very carefully and subtly.  And then figured it out on my own at a later date - Pay Rise spot the ball came my way that way…

Later on, 2000’s, I knew a local pro player, who would give me some good info, in exchange for locations in pubs in the local area that had certain machines.  Not necessarily emptiers, but good stuff nonetheless, you couldn’t get off the internet at the time.  Vivids.  Numbering. Something on Golden Dragon. The Italian Job 2 - the tip off was Super Cross Fire, but I developed the method myself, with manipulation of the reels using holds for when the next win was ‘due’’, and was actually quite profitable.  

I never knew even a third of the methods when I played, it is clear from videos on YouTube, there were many more than I knew about, I didn’t know about the Maygay Super Pots one, for example, so it is interesting to learn now about the ones that I didn’t know about at the time.

Cheers

Mike

Edited March 31, 2022 by MikeP

[woodsy]

I found two empties from playing the games day in day out and realising I had a advantage of payed in a certain way. Reel appeal by bgt had a free swap holds for bars £10 and royle family would hold a win by changing stake after a win

[MikeP]

7 hours ago, Dougsta said:

Off and On wouldn't be enough on most games, as they don't all tell you the specific revision when booting. One thing I heard of was on some games you could see a sticker/plate they added once an update had been done, if you looked between the reels. Could be urban myth.

Pros often bought and sold info between themselves, especially once they were done with an area. Visit, rob the machines, then sell the trick to a local for £200, since you'll never be back. Personally I just subtly observed others on games, especially if they looked like they knew what they were doing. I got the Jackpoteers trick that way, for one. Other stuff I worked out for myself, like optimal strategies on JPMs and certain Barcrests with a fixed streak cycle (Revolution, Gold Strike etc).

 

Yes, on some machines you could see the actual rom chip through the reels, and it did have a sticker on it saying what version it was.  Jackpoteers was one such machine, I remember.  There were so many different versions of that one!