YouTube Emulation Extravaganza

[serene02]

You could ram reset most emulated fruit machines and they will play the exact same sequence if played the the same, I imagine anyway, I haven’t tested it.  That’s just the result of a compensated machine and the way they are coded.   Once you play differently the outcome will diverge obviously.

J

[Boulderdash]

6 minutes ago, serene02 said:

You could ram reset most emulated fruit machines and they will play the exact same sequence if played the the same, I imagine anyway, I haven’t tested it.  That’s just the result of a compensated machine and the way they are coded.   Once you play differently the outcome will diverge obviously.

J

It's kind of odd though. 

No developer would code down to a level of specific outcomes such as 'spin plum plum apple bar, spin grape grape apple lemon. Gamble 11, 8, 7, 9' 

So why is the machine repeating that precise sequence?

[Retrofruit]

31 minutes ago, Boulderdash said:

It's kind of odd though. 

No developer would code down to a level of specific outcomes such as 'spin plum plum apple bar, spin grape grape apple lemon. Gamble 11, 8, 7, 9' 

So why is the machine repeating that precise sequence?

As I posted on the other thread you started it is likely just making the same decision each time based on the variables it is working with. As there is no intelligence there it's just a+b=c every time. If you go the wrong way on the gamble does it still spin the same number or does it change the number and let you win? i.e. it determined that you will win the gamble or is the number determined.

I think many machines have some logic that says if you go hi on an 11 it won't necessarily spin a 12 if it wants you to win (but it might if you repeat the process) whereas it will always spin a winning number if you go lower, so an element of "odds" if you will. A lot of MPU4 Barcrests 1,2,3,4,9,10,11,12 were pretty much always winners (1/12 always obviously) unless the machine had just given something like three holds on 7's and some MPU4 BWB builds the number reel would only spin 4 or 9 in normal play.

It is my understanding that to make JPM games a bit more unique they programmed some randomness into the code so you might hit a decision where the machine doesn't want you to spin a third JPM symbol for £3 but the randomness kicks in and if it selected that symbol it will still land it, similarly on the hi-lo. I have seen some unusual behaviour on JPM's before where it may suddenly just spin three of a kind out of the blue and any value not necessarily jackpot, but even when dead it may suddenly spin triple bars out of nowhere. Unfortunately I don't know anyone from JPM to confirm.

[serene02]

They aren’t hard wired, it’s just the initial start point.  If the machine started with a different random seed this wouldn’t happen.   It wouldn’t have been something they would have even considered.

J

[logopolis]

1 hour ago, serene02 said:

You could ram reset most emulated fruit machines and they will play the exact same sequence if played the the same, I imagine anyway, I haven’t tested it.  That’s just the result of a compensated machine and the way they are coded.   Once you play differently the outcome will diverge obviously.

J

Just to add something about RAM reset sequences. I am currently exploring Golden Game RAM reset sequences. There seem to be 2 different types of RAM reset. 

If you go into configurations with the machine working normally (none of the doors open) and clear RAM then the reels do the same sequence every time you clear the RAM in this way. However, if you open the doors and then go to config and clear RAM, then close doors, the reels do a different sequence compared to the first method of clear RAM.

I tried this with an early Golden Game program. With both clear RAM ways, the RAM reset reels are XXX

[Boulderdash]

28 minutes ago, Retrofruit said:

As I posted on the other thread you started it is likely just making the same decision each time based on the variables it is working with. As there is no intelligence there it's just a+b=c every time. If you go the wrong way on the gamble does it still spin the same number or does it change the number and let you win? i.e. it determined that you will win the gamble or is the number determined.

I think many machines have some logic that says if you go hi on an 11 it won't necessarily spin a 12 if it wants you to win (but it might if you repeat the process) whereas it will always spin a winning number if you go lower, so an element of "odds" if you will. A lot of MPU4 Barcrests 1,2,3,4,9,10,11,12 were pretty much always winners (1/12 always obviously) unless the machine had just given something like three holds on 7's and some MPU4 BWB builds the number reel would only spin 4 or 9 in normal play.

It is my understanding that to make JPM games a bit more unique they programmed some randomness into the code so you might hit a decision where the machine doesn't want you to spin a third JPM symbol for £3 but the randomness kicks in and if it selected that symbol it will still land it, similarly on the hi-lo. I have seen some unusual behaviour on JPM's before where it may suddenly just spin three of a kind out of the blue and any value not necessarily jackpot, but even when dead it may suddenly spin triple bars out of nowhere. Unfortunately I don't know anyone from JPM to confirm.

As I said, those are always the numbers. So if you go lower than the seven it still goes to 11 but you lose. 

I would say the machine has perhaps chosen all the numbers on the climb once it enters the feature, with the exception of the very top where it will kill you no matter which way you go on the five. 

In other words, it has decided it will let you climb to a certain height on the feature and you just have to pick the right numbers. 

[serene02]

Interestingly, there is at least one machine, maybe more, where we are privy to see extra info about how far the current gamble will let you climb to.

I think it’s a Barcrest club machine called Club Tropicana.  I don’t think the machine has a visible alpha display so adding one reveals some live machine stats. Gives an incite to how these machines where programmed to protect their percentage.

J

[Chopaholic]

33 minutes ago, serene02 said:

Interestingly, there is at least one machine, maybe more, where we are privy to see extra info about how far the current gamble will let you climb to.

I think it’s a Barcrest club machine called Club Tropicana.  I don’t think the machine has a visible alpha display so adding one reveals some live machine stats. Gives an incite to how these machines where programmed to protect their percentage.

J

@Fishsta references that in his (excellent!) Fairplay video.

 

[dondplayer]

11 hours ago, Boulderdash said:

Talking of compensation, I was playing Club Attraction today and noticed from the attached saved RAM/GAM files it ALWAYS lands grape, grape, pear, pear on the first spin, then plum, plum, apple, melon on the second. Then it offers a hold so you can hold the 3 an 2 on the plum and apple to get on the feature. It ALWAYS then spins lemon on reel 1, apple on 4 and a 10 for hi-lo gamble. The ten goes to a 7, then 11, 6, 8, 11, 10, 9, 5. If you go in any other direction you lose. And you always lose on the 5. 

That's not compensation. That's fixed!

This is really old news. It's been covered many times on this and other sites. Even I made a post on the club Cops and Robbers where you could perform the same actions to get the JP - and that was from a downloaded state , not even RAM reset IIRC.

A lot of the 'older' games always did the same thing from a specific point - in some cases you can get JP, in others get to a specific win but no further which is what you describe.

I once toook note of actions on an older build of Maygay's screen play that would make you a decent profit every time.

The 'newer' games are much more interseting - they vary in how happy they are from a specific point even though in theory they should perform the same.

[Boulderdash]

9 hours ago, dondplayer said:

This is really old news. It's been covered many times on this and other sites. Even I made a post on the club Cops and Robbers where you could perform the same actions to get the JP - and that was from a downloaded state , not even RAM reset IIRC.

A lot of the 'older' games always did the same thing from a specific point - in some cases you can get JP, in others get to a specific win but no further which is what you describe.

I once toook note of actions on an older build of Maygay's screen play that would make you a decent profit every time.

The 'newer' games are much more interseting - they vary in how happy they are from a specific point even though in theory they should perform the same.

I remember the fairplay thing clearly. 

However, I'd always been told these old bell fruit machines were a bit different, in that they only looked one step ahead on the climb and that was how to beat them. 

In other words, it didn't look two steps on and was happy to let you get to the top nudge pot, but wasn't expecting you to go against the previous number leaving you a 5-8 which it could reasonably kill you must of the time. 

They rarely killed you on numbers 1-3 and 10-12, so in order to win the cashpot you had to go against the odds to leave you a 'good' number for the final step. 

But what I've discovered here is that's bullshit. All numbers on the climb are pre-determined on feature entry, as is the prize you can climb to, just like Club Tropicana. 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Boulderdash

[serene02]

This is just how the machine protects itself, like it or not, they have to be predetermined to an extent, they can’t chance a random gamble just in case.

I expect this kind of coding from a compensated AWP and especially Club machines.  I played extensively in the late 80’s and 90’s and I always knew the machine had to cheat you if it couldn’t afford that win.

J

 

[Chopaholic]

The thing is @serene02 they fucked them up absolutely all the time, which is the core problem with compensated machines, unless they are perfectly coded (which they almost never are), they are vulnerable to manipulation.

One of the starkest examples I can think of if Maygay's Just The Ticket with the invincible 'holdover' trick, where I got the machine into the state where it wanted OVER THREE HUNDRED POUNDS (on a £15 jackpot) to go through the £5 block, yes it was 'compensating' itself but it was also paying jackpot after jackpot that it shouldn't have been as the code was completely incapable of protecting itself from what was happening.

Fine for the person who 'did it', not so good for the poor fucker who walks up to the thing next.

Compensated machines are better off dead, they were never done properly, people got hurt, let them live on via emulation and a few decently run retro arcades such as Mr P's.

 

[dondplayer]

1 hour ago, Chopaholic said:

Compensated machines are better off dead, they were never done properly, people got hurt, let them live on via emulation and a few decently run retro arcades such as Mr P's.

 Can't agree with that - well actually I ALMOST can these days. I say that because there are very few current machines with anything on them but they do exist. Yes a few years ago (in fact for a long time) there were methods and empties all over the place and I'm sure many on here have benefited.

The trouble is a random machine (if really random and that's dubious on some games) gives no advantage and thus no point in playing and they usually are just press start * a million and that's about it. At least Hi Tec AWP often had more to them than this.

[serene02]

1 hour ago, Chopaholic said:

The thing is @serene02 they fucked them up absolutely all the time, which is the core problem with compensated machines, unless they are perfectly coded (which they almost never are), they are vulnerable to manipulation.

One of the starkest examples I can think of if Maygay's Just The Ticket with the invincible 'holdover' trick, where I got the machine into the state where it wanted OVER THREE HUNDRED POUNDS (on a £15 jackpot) to go through the £5 block, yes it was 'compensating' itself but it was also paying jackpot after jackpot that it shouldn't have been as the code was completely incapable of protecting itself from what was happening.

Fine for the person who 'did it', not so good for the poor fucker who walks up to the thing next.

Compensated machines are better off dead, they were never done properly, people got hurt, let them live on via emulation and a few decently run retro arcades such as Mr P's.

 

Oh, I know that Al

Yes, obviously it's the coding that allowed these exploits, they just didn't always do things the correct way, I imagine it got a lot more complex once machines started having many pots and streak pots that needed catering for...  but ask yourself this...

If you could go back in time armed with the insight to all of those lovely emptiers over the years would you not get involved?   It's a tricky one

J

[Boulderdash]

35 minutes ago, dondplayer said:

 Can't agree with that - well actually I ALMOST can these days. I say that because there are very few current machines with anything on them but they do exist. Yes a few years ago (in fact for a long time) there were methods and empties all over the place and I'm sure many on here have benefited.

The trouble is a random machine (if really random and that's dubious on some games) gives no advantage and thus no point in playing and they usually are just press start * a million and that's about it. At least Hi Tec AWP often had more to them than this.

It's a debate worthy of its own thread, so I've started one here...

[Chopaholic]

46 minutes ago, serene02 said:

 

If you could go back in time armed with the insight to all of those lovely emptiers over the years would you not get involved?   It's a tricky one

J

That actually gives me a decent lead-in to this video, where I talk about 'The Butterfly Effect isn't a real thing' when it comes to thinking back through these things.

 

[Chopaholic]

Well here's someone to get a comment left by! (I figured I'd chance my arm with the numbering question.....)

[woodsy]

1 hour ago, Chopaholic said:

Well here's someone to get a comment left by! (I figured I'd chance my arm with the numbering question.....)

Oh yes that man is god!!! Haha!! Ask for original roms haha especially for Arcadia

Edited September 29, 2021 by woodsy

[serene02]

JPM’s from that era of numbering where player machines for sure.   If you didn’t know about numbering you could get hammered on their machines, especially a £15 Rollercoaster that had just done its maximum top which was £90.  It’s a fantastic machine though.

J

Edited September 29, 2021 by serene02

[vectra666]

7 hours ago, woodsy said:

Oh yes that man is god!!! Haha!! Ask for original roms haha especially for Arcadia

Roller coaster £6 would be more sought after

[woodsy]

19 minutes ago, vectra666 said:

Roller coaster £6 would be more sought after

Thought we had all those!?? Ah well tbh that got is a god to me!!! Anything he could share!! Wow 

[Boulderdash]

23 hours ago, serene02 said:

JPM’s from that era of numbering where player machines for sure.   If you didn’t know about numbering you could get hammered on their machines, especially a £15 Rollercoaster that had just done its maximum top which was £90.  It’s a fantastic machine though.

J

How do you get £90 from Rollercoaster? I've never seen it repeat more than 3 times. 

edit; amusingly I just put £20 in a £10 rollercoaster. Got a top that went to £40, then jackpot off super hold, another off 5 nudges, then big money coconuts for another £20. Plus a couple of £1.20s and thats a £82.40 collect!

Edited September 30, 2021 by Boulderdash

[serene02]

Yeah the £15 could do 90.  I was as shocked as my mate,

J

[Chopaholic]

Yes we had a £15er here in an arcade, right up until the arcade shut down in, oooohhhhh, maybe 2004/2005, something like that. Could go absolutely crackers if you caught it right (sure I remember it doing a £90 once), but on the flipside they could stay dead for a looooooong time before starting to show 1/12, so it needed leaving for a while after having been done!

Completely different game to the £6/£8 versions, and the £10 versions for that matter. On the £15 jackpot Roller Coaster was a pretty hardcore proposition.

[Chopaholic]

This video is Unlisted, if features me getting the £70 trap on Star Wars and a £28.80 Nemesis on Roller Coaster (£10 jackppot). The cafe/arcade got rid of most of their machines as it wasn't worth paying the licence on them, it's still there but they only have a handful of machines, mostly £500 randoms - and the place only opens in the evenings. The Roller Coaster and Star Wars went in the culling unfortunately, although TBH once I'd done the Star Wars about three times it was permanently on its arse so I don't think anyone else was playing it  

https://youtu.be/wuAtxWNl35w