Hamsun

I've been having a play on various RC layouts and I'm still not sold on it. The £5 version went the whole way on Nemesis but even though it was still numbering I found it hard to squeeze any more profit out of it. It was almost impossible to stop the numbering (I've never played a £5 one in the wild). The £10 and £15 versions are easier to kill off but one of the main reasons RC frustrated me back in the day is the fact that they can keep numbering for a long time without giving you the opportunities to take the full the value out. Nemesis is also a bit of a puzzle. How is it possible that the 3rd feature from the top [almost] always gives more reward than the JP or top feature (on the £10 ROM we have, anyway)? From my few sessions, it also seems much harder to reach nemesis than the top feature itself on the £10 ROM. Nemesis stopped at £8.80 for me on the £15 version and the top feature gave me £30 a few spins after that so later chips seem to have corrected[?] the anomaly.

RC was a good machine when compared to most of what was around at the time but I preferred the JPMs that gave more of a reward to players who built up familiarity with the features and mastered the skills. All the features below test Your Strength were fairly useless so there wasn't much point in going for them and TYS wasn't exactly much of a challenge. Also...tokens. Machines that effectively paid out most of their value in token streaks were hardlly good value. I think the all-cash £10 JP ushered in a much fairer era for players. No more stupid tokens to fiddle with and good balance between playability and RTP.

I don't quite understand the love for Rollercoaster that many profess. It's many years since I played one, either in the wild or on the emulator and it never appealed to me in the way that other JPMs from the £10 era did. I dabbled on the £10 version trying to get nemesis but it wouldn't let me gamble up. It eventually gave it to me on 'last ride' and it went for the full £28.80 - awarding a big win like that on 'last ride' is similar to other late chip JPMs chucking the JP straight onto the winline. I hate they sort of 'gameplay'. The £8 JP version gave me about the same amount on nemesis (I forgot to check exactly) plus a couple of JPs from TYS. Apart from £2 cash, it was about £50 all in tokens. I think that is one of the reasons I tended to avoid playing RC and most other AWPs back in the token days. Who wants to exchange real money for a bucketful of tokens other than an addict? Then again, I'm pretty sure the tokens con was one of the main ways they got us addicted in the first place I managed to gamble up to nemesis fairly easily on the £15 JP ROM but it stopped at £8.80! I also hit the Waltzers on the first win before the £15 JP and that's where it stopped - melons for £2! From what I remember the best place to hit Waltzers was the first win after the JP but I may be wrong about that. After that it gave me JP from TYS plus one repeat. All of the versions of RC that I have played so far have (up to now) been paying out well above percentage but they haven't had a huge amount through them.

I've since had it on autoplay for several hundred credits but even that couldn't get it far over percentage. It still kept chucking in JPs. After that I played it quickly for a bit taking small wins and ignoring all opportunities for big wins. It has now started playing very differently, a lot more like I would expect. I managed to steal several JPs from nudge steppa, hidden features and the odd okey dokey. Numbering on this Big 50 is not reliable so it's hard to know when to quit but I ended up well ahead on this session (£50+), even though none of the JPs repeated. I guess the lesson here is that it is not always wise to make snap judgements about the playability of a machine that hasn't had a lot of credits or mixed styles of play.

I watched (most of) your video a while ago and was a bit bemused by the whole concept of going all out for okey dokey on this machine and yet...having played the DX quite a bit, that seems as good a strategy as any. This chip is not generous enough with bonus features to get a lot of player advantage. If you play it like a casual punter, messing up things like nudge steppa and nudges from the feature it simply starts landing JPs straight on the winline. It also loves to force the 'hidden' features, usually for a crappy £1 or £2 win feature. I'm not sure how/why it would repeat big unless it's been played really badly for a long time and has held on to a lot of value. I note that the series 11 rechip states 'tighten % control in arcade mode'. That might explain why it plays like it does. I tried playing it badly but it kept forcing JPs on me and it was hard to get it far behind percentage. I'm guessing I've been playing the same version (DX by Tommy C)?

That's a pity. In many ways it gives a false impression of why certain machines were so popular with dedicated players. Playability plus profitability. A lot of these late chip JPMs and ACEs give very little advantage to the player who knows all (or most) of the hiddens and can hit the skills when they arise. A bit depressing but it is what it is, I guess. The layouts I tend to go back to the most are for the few late 80s/early 90s Barcrests that still have true skill features. I quickly get bored of AWPs that present no real challenge. Even emptiers on those machines get boring after a while. Saying that I have recently put quite a lot through the Big 50 DX trying to figure out why it seems to play very differently to ones I remember in the wild. I certainly don't remember them checking the JP in regularly as soon as they got a bit behind percentage, even when played casually. A lot of these chipped JPMs also appear to give fake or unreliable numbering. That was something I was aware of when played in the wild but it's good to see it confirmed on the emulator. I'm not sure if it was a deliberate tactic from JPM to trap 'pro' players or just a consequence of flattened profiles.

I'm not sure if this is the best thread to ask but I wonder if anyone knows how many (if any) original ROMs we have for JPM and ACE from the late 1990s/early 2000s. This period includes many of my favourite machines but the layouts I've tried (apart from maybe Fast Trak and one or two others) all seem to be on those crappy chips that spin in JPs while blocking JP features and setups for hidden bonus features &c.

I'm sure you are right but take,say, early 90s Barcrest AWPs with true skill climb features that can give JP if hit all the way (Cash Counter, Cash Zone &c). They obviously do have a routine that makes the skill stop progressively faster the more times it is hit accurately, to the point where it becomes insanely fast (but still possible if you can hit it). When players begin missing it more than hitting it, it gradually slows down again. So at a simplistic level, the machine is reacting and adjusting to player input. I've often wondered why Barcrest put these true skill feature so low down on the features table, Did they not realise that some players would work out how to hit them consistently and thus empty the tubes of all the money in them? They must have realised with later revisions because the true skill was chipped out but that range of AWPs were effectively SWPs in disguise

It's mainly Barcrest AWPs released in the late 80's/early nineties that I've noticed this when playing in the emulator. I suppose it's possible that they have routines that tell the machine not to offer certain features if they detect that the current player is taking a lot of value from them in a single session, even when slightly behind percentage? I'm thinking mainly of low down skill features that a skillful player can take to JP every time (in theory, at least). Also, 'late chip' JPMs from the £15/£25 JP era appear to have something similar. They can block all potentially high value features for a long period before dumping a JP on the win line. If you gamble it for the top streak feature and lose, they spin in a JP for every single credit until you either take it or win the gamble. It could just be that the way I've been playing these on the emulator, loading a lot of coins in one go, has led me to imagine this but maybe not...

I find it hard to believe that putting only £1 coins in would affect the profile. I'm more convinced that playing without a break over a long period, without letting the machine go into attract mode, does have an effect. It might be just imagination but a lot of AWPs did seem to clam up on nudges, features, holds &c when fed rapidly without a break.

A shark basically. I hate sharking. You almost always found a few in busy arcades, often apparently friendly with the staff. Either the staff were stupid or corrupt or a bit of both. It's one of the reasons I stopped going to arcades, even when they contained emptiable machines [getting barred for winning was another reason...]. To my mind a'pro' is a player who has advanced skills and knowledge and targets specific machines, often travelling around the country to find them. Sharks target other players, pros target certain machines. There is a grey area in between, of course. To be honest, neither are particularly nice ways to make money.

I had already given up by the £70 era. I heard about DOND, of course (it was all over the internet, for one thing) but I didn't want to get involved as I had moved onto other, less stressful pursuits. But I stand by the 'writing on the wall bit' - without major exploits, AWPS had become virtually unplayable after the £25 JP era and are now in terminal (:-/) decline.

For sure. If a 'pro' player goes on doing the rounds without getting new info on a regular basis they will likely end up in a worse place than when they started. I think a lot of players saw the writing on the wall at the end of the £25 JP era and the rise of FOBTs (along with the internet making knowledge more widely available). I gave up about then and never felt any desire to carry on. It was a relief, if anything.

This is something I have always believed. Who else but a former addict would have the motivation to spend their days travelling around grimy pubs, seedy arcaded and smoke filled betting shops seeking out machines they could manipulate and/or empty? i suppoe it's possibel that some drifted into it without ever having played and lost on a fruit machine in their life but I think that is very unlikely.

Was that a metaphorical kicking or a literal one? In my worst times as a clueless player of AWPs I would punch and kick machines but I would never physically attack another person. If I saw someone empty a machine I would watch and ask them how they did it. Sometimes they would tell me to FO, other times they would let slip valuable info.

That is how I always think of it. Human consciousness comes from being born, experiencing life and being aware of your ultimate mortality. Not something machines can ever experience so they will never have real emotions. It's certainly possible that machine intelligence will become very sophisiticated but it has no heart and that's the worry. Too many people seemed to have swallowed the AI kool-aid and are willing/wanting to believe that the bots will save us.Up to a point, maybe, but lets keep them well away from making life and death decisions for us mere mortals.

Artificial intelligence is an oxymoron. It's just highly sophisticated machine based number crunching, as are all computers. It will never become self aware because it has no self to become aware of. It can be made to look like it has human intelligence but that's just a simulacrum.

Is that 'free' as in 'unaccounted' or just something it can offer when it can't really afford it?

Can you elaborate on what you mean by free tenner? I've been giving the Arcadia DX quite a bit of play and I have to say that it is one of the worst, least playable versions I have come across. I reckon it blocks gambles to SEU at least 80% - 90% of the time, even when numbering like crazy. It's more likely to give you enough swaps and bonuses to gamble to the top. It can play dead for dozens of spins at a time, even when well under percentage.

Oddly enough, late 80s/early 90s Barcrests were similar to JPMs in that taking skill features rather than forcing was the way to go. Forcing later Barcrests was generally the easiest way to take the value but it didn't give the same sense of satisfaion. 'Forcing' and 'playing' are very different strategies and point up major inconsistencies in the way AWPs were designed and marketed to the public.

Some might but I think most sensible players, even if they could hit all the skills, would tend to take the best feature or win available rather than gamble on 'bad' numbers like 4/5/6/7/8 to get to something better. Obviously though, whenever JP feature arose you wouldl take it rather than gamble past it. Playing JPMs can require a lot of patience...

I've been playing with the other DX of Cashbuster and I've finally managed to start hitting the JP on SnS fairly consistently. I've had to adapt my old method. Rather than looking for the marker on the right edge of the reel I've had to time it from the red bars. I managed to hit 5 out of 6 (the last one gave four repeats). I tried letting it time out a few times but it didn't always land on the symbol below the win line. It definitely does it sometimes. It wasn't something I did very often in the wild so it could be my memory is playing tricks. So it does appear to be true skill. [I was almost shocked to find I could hit SnS by timing, especially after all these years]. This has also made me question the reliability of numbering on these. After the four JP repeats it still kept throwing in 12s and 1s and appeared fairly lively with bonus numbers and let-em-spins but kept killing me within one or two moves on the board. It took £30+ to get to a win over £3. It wouldn't let me get near SnS again for ages. It then gave me JP plus a repeat from 2 reel blasts (which I took because it was either that or gamble and lose on 4 for nth time) Make of that what you will. I'm just glad I'm not still playing in the wild.

I think it's worth reiterating that virtually all 'pro' players started out as addicts / obsessives. How else would they gain their various playing skills and knowledge of features &c? It's not a very nice 'profession' nor is it eactly stable. Gambling tends to bring out the worst in people, whether it's becoming angry and depressed at losing or crowing about winning. I'm sure there was corruption in the fruit machine business but I've always been sceptical of the idea that there was a direct line between some crooked industry insiders and 'top players' who only played machines on which they had been given inside info. I can't believe a non-player (ie, non-addict) would have had the motivation to get involved with travelling around looking for machines to empty. I did know some 'pro players' years ago who desperately wanted to get jobs testing new machines in the hope they could work out emptiers and techniques. If any of them managed to get into such positions I daresay they might be the sort to leak info for a price. As far as I know, none of them gained employment in the industry, even at low levels. I guess it's possible that arcade owners and staff with access to new machines and some technical knowledge might have discovered emptiers and exploits. With the exception of true skill features that can be discovered purely through playing, it's always been a mystery to me where emptiers and the like originate.

Something I'd almost forgotten on Casbuster - if you let it time out when you take SnS, it will stop on the symbol one below the win line. If it's the three cherries with the JP under the middle cherry it's an easy £10 repeater. I had to shovel well over £70 through it just to get it to gamble to SnS with the cherry over JP set-up and about the same amount for a seciond attempt (I got the set-up numerous times but it would rarely let me gamble to SnS). The first time it stopped on JP. The second time it stopped on blue bars. When I played these in the wild I'm fairly certain that unchipped versions always stopped on the JP repeater when timing out from that set-up. The emulated version I played also generallyly blocks SnS. I had to put £60 into it at one stage without it gambling to SnS once, even though it was numbering. Instead it threw the JP straight onto the win line - twice. The first one repeated once, the second four times for the full £50 (I don't think I have ever seen a Casbuster give more than 4 repeats on the £10). So I think this one is on the nasty chip that blocks SnS and also slips. Rather than let you get to JP features it simply throws in JPs when way under percentage. My memory is a little hazy after all these years but I think I'm right... [I was playing the DX of Casbuster from the legacy layouts. The meters con't work (cash in is displayed as cash out) but that's probably irrelevant.]

Apologies: I think there was a bit of cross-posting above. I was talking about Cash Buster and Big 50 and not Rollercoaster.